Subject: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:03:28 -0500 I have some questions. Maybe some of you might have time to comment. = This site http://bachcottage.com/TimingWithinWinSDRx.pdf has a two meg = graphics ladened word document that shows what I am asking. The site = isn't terribly fast. Some of you won't have connections fast enough to = bother. If you have the time, your comments would be appreciated.
I have some questions. Maybe some of = you might have=20 time to comment. This site http://bachcottage.com/TimingWithinWinSDRx.pdf h= as a two=20 meg graphics ladened word document that shows what I am asking. The site = isn't=20 terribly fast. Some of you won't have connections fast enough to bother. = If you=20 have the time, your comments would be=20 appreciated.
Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:23:05 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/01, dickthomas01@............. writes: > http://bachcottage.com/TimingWithinWinSDRx.pdf Hi Tom, First, it is not uncommon to get timing errors of a second or so. The Travel Time calculation uses average ground velocities and you may well not be average. I am not sure how WinSDR actually does the timing, even when corrected by GPS. The display program will presumably use the software clock on your computer. Have you asked Larry? The software clocks fitted to PC computers are often crap. They can loose or gain 10s of minutes per day. What errors do you see when you check your software clock against NIST time? http://nist.time.gov/ Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 2008/07/01, dick= thomas01@............. writes:

">http://bac= hcottage.com/TimingWithinWinSDRx.pdf


Hi Tom,

       First, it is not uncommon to get timing= errors of a second or so. The Travel Time calculation uses average ground v= elocities and you may well not be average.

       I am not sure how WinSDR actually does=20= the timing, even when corrected by GPS. The display program will presumably=20= use the software clock on your computer. Have you asked Larry? The software=20= clocks fitted to PC computers are often crap. They can loose or gain 10s of=20= minutes per day.

       What errors do you see when you check y= our software clock against NIST time?  
       http://nist.time.gov/

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:00:33 -0500 Thanks for coming back to me Chris. I didn't know if you could handle 2 plus megs, at least, if I were you I'd be in the country. I approached Larry on this issue and was left unsatisfied...but I may not have made my statements as clear as I should. First, it is not uncommon to get timing errors of a second or so. The Travel Time calculation uses average ground velocities and you may well not be average. And I know you don't use WinQuake but I asked Larry if that is what the locate file function is for...he never answered me. And often, I are talking minutes here ...not seconds I am not sure how WinSDR actually does the timing, even when corrected by GPS. The display program will presumably use the software clock on your computer. Have you asked Larry? I did ask him if he thought this could be a board issue...he didn't think so, he keyed on the travel time tables as not applicable in this situation. The software clocks fitted to PC computers are often crap. They can loose or gain 10s of minutes per day. I got told that my timing was off by Dr. Hermann over at St. Louis U very early in my embarking on this seismology stuff. I had already tired the software timing stuff. I had started with syncing all my computers to the same time even before I got into seismology. Dr. Hermann's comments sent me after the satellite timing board from Larry. Generally what I see on USI and my display is pretty close. I have recently asked Dr, Hermann about "events" in a certain minute of a certain hour and he replies without commenting about my timing any more. What errors do you see when you check your software clock against NIST time? I turned on the national time station in Boulder Colo and watched it for a couple of minutes. The program claimed to be locked on a satellite. I saw the time jump two seconds as it hit the minute mark on one occasion. The next minute looked like it changed within a half second of the minute mark. Chalk this up to ignorance, too, I guess. I asked Nelson why a database of amateur seismologists. I questioned the inventory of sensors because it is posted on the sensor information in the files as posted. He is out of the office but a text message from him seemed to give me the idea he was confused .....eh, so am I. What is to be gained by this database other than a lot of information about location and equipment flying around the Internet??? This timing issue has bothered me for over four years. I suspect that if you decrease the X (horizontal --i.e. expand time) there is an increased error. That is what I hope someone else has noticed...or can tell me where my thinking is wrong. We had another quake last week; somewhere around a mag 3. I can handle mag 3's but those fours and fives just wiped me out. You know, those geophones pick up those nearby quakes better than the Lehmans and AS-1. I finally put braces on the hot water heater and started looking at the clutter on high shelves. I did anchor my bookcases to the walls many years ago. As you can see in the file, Bob McClure has me getting sac files from the nearby seismic centers and converting to Winquake format. Excpet for the time issue, I can accept the output of my equipment in comparison to the professional stuff. I know I can't compete! Did you ever read a book by Peter Hernon titled 8.4? Dr. Hermann hadn't. I don't read much fiction. This guy did a lot of homework on the area before he wrote the book. Many of the places he mentions in the book I am familiar with and all the faults. Sure there are a few minor faults he left out. And the premise on how to stop the earthquakes is as old as I am --almost. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Problem with channel From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:43:02 +0000 Hi all I am having issues with a channel on the Hekla sensor. For some unkown reason the north-south channel always drops out during the day. Then mostly when it is sunny and hot. Other two channels continue to work as normal. The signal drop off is compleate, the channel dies at 100%. However, it has been shown that if a GSM phone is near the signal shows up on the channel, so I don't think it is the hardware. I do think it might be a cable issue. But I am not sure, so here is the trace I made from the morning drop out. The trace, http://157.157.215.56/~jonfr/dead.channel/ IPv6 link, for the tech savy and test thirsty. http://2a01:348:172::1/~jonfr/dead.channel/ Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Problem with channel From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:39:46 -0700 Hi Jón, I would suggest that you move the channels around at the input to the Amp/Filter board. If the loss of signal moves to another channel you know that the problem is with the wiring or the sensor. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN Jón Frímann wrote: > Hi all > > I am having issues with a channel on the Hekla sensor. For some unkown > reason the north-south channel always drops out during the day. Then > mostly when it is sunny and hot. > > Other two channels continue to work as normal. The signal drop off is > compleate, the channel dies at 100%. However, it has been shown that if > a GSM phone is near the signal shows up on the channel, so I don't think > it is the hardware. I do think it might be a cable issue. But I am not > sure, so here is the trace I made from the morning drop out. > > The trace, http://157.157.215.56/~jonfr/dead.channel/ > IPv6 link, for the tech savy and test thirsty. > http://2a01:348:172::1/~jonfr/dead.channel/ > > Regards. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:16:00 +1000 At 04:00 PM 7/1/2008 -0500, you wrote: >Chalk this up to ignorance, too, I guess. I asked Nelson why a database of >amateur seismologists. I questioned the inventory of sensors because it is >posted on the sensor information in the files as posted. He is out of the >office but a text message from him seemed to give me the idea he was >confused .....eh, so am I. What is to be gained by this database other >than a lot of information about location and equipment flying around the >Internet??? Thomas..... My name is Dave the surname is Nelson !! :) the out of office message you got was from the OTHER David Nelson that is in the group. LOTSSS is to be gained cuz the database gives so much more than sensor data. I started this database many years ago when the PSN group was so so much smaller It has maps showing where everyone is located around the world and the station data also gives broader info on the types of sensors and recording equip YOU Must remember NOT everyone has digital systems and not everyone that does posts to the group. in fact there is probably less than 25% of the people in the database that actually regularly post their files !!! The database also gives email, www site addresses, soil types at the station and other general comments the station owner has given me to add to the database. All this info is available "at a glance" in the database and isnt available anywhere else You are knocking something that has been VERY useful to many people for some 15 years :) Its good to be able to look at the maps and see how spread out around the world out PSN group is. and then just by clicking on a selected dot on the map you can pull up all the info for that station! cheers Take care Dave Nelson In that order ;) Sydney Australia __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: amateur seismologist database From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:39:42 -0500 > > Dave... > My name is Dave the surname is Nelson !! :) > Sorry about that... and about how poorly I used my words, which obviously, is seated in ignorance -- my point of view was solely that of seeing only one aspect of the issue -- the sensor data within WinQuake. > LOTSSS is to be gained cuz the database gives so much more than sensor > data. I started this database many years ago when the PSN group was so so > much smaller It has maps showing where everyone is located around the > world > and the station data also gives broader info on the types of sensors and > recording equip Dave, this is the heart of my poorly worded comment -- just what is to be gained? The words seem to send the message that I question the value of the database but don't go there --that was not my point at all. In an effort to get a better understanding, I took the time to download the database and browse it. I see some things there that aren't part of the earthquake files; but how current is the database? I selected three references from part 2 and got error messages. Travel times was a part of the issue... and I recognize that soil types at the recording sites, and in between, are influential. In this day and age where new networks, newer computer centers, people changing jobs and changing Internet providers is the rule, how current is the database if individuals don't update their data? The database has many more names than people who post to the website. Are they still operating seismic units? If so, is their data available? How? And probably the most important insight into my thinking and overlooked part of my words dealt with the comment "information flying around the Internet". In the U.S., we have to worry about hackers getting into government/private databases, databases being taken off stolen laptops as well as information stolen when we personally give it out to sites we think are legit. I had to change my banking accounts a few years back because someone got into a regional banking process center. I have two layers of isolation on my own system. When I want to post a modern graphics ladened file like I did with the timing issue (like to PSN), I have to send it out to a website and reference it. It becomes incovenient/difficult/or a security risk for most to access it. The secruity issues are making some of us paranoid. Larry's network accepts only text which provides some protection and reduces the amount of memory and bandwideth used. This obviously limits the type of information exchanged. YOU Must remember NOT everyone has digital systems and not everyone > that does posts to the group. in fact there is probably less than 25% of > the people in the database that actually regularly post their files !!! Here I go again, showing my ignorance...... Just what does this mean? In this day and age of digital verses analog, filtrating of frequencies, short period versas long period and maybe even paper seismograms --what are these people doing??? Please take this right. I am trying to get a clear picture. Are they just visually monitoring for earthquakes? > > You are knocking something that has been VERY useful to many people for > some 15 years :) No, Dave, I did not want my remarks to infer that I am "knocking" what you are doing. I am trying to understand what you have. I cannot criticize what I don't understand. But your dialogue allows communication and better understanding as to whether/why I would want to post information on the database. > Maybe this dialog can help others in the same experience level as I. Please --- keep up the work! Yours, just plain Tom __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:00:29 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/03, davenn@............... writes: > LOTSSS is to be gained cuz the database gives so much more than sensor > data. I started this database many years ago when the PSN group was so so > much smaller It has maps showing where everyone is located around the world > and the station data also gives broader info on the types of sensors and > recording equip Hi Dave, I fully support your efforts for maintaining the Amateur Seismic Database. The larger the number of members, the more the information needs to be formalised. I have found it very useful. Thank you very much! But could we have a field which dates the particular entries, please? Have you considered requesting an annual update from all members? Something like 'have you checked you entry recently and are there any changes / amendments, please'? Some of the information seems to be quite old and in need of some attention. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/03, davenn@............... writes:

    LOTSSS is to= be gained  cuz the database gives so much more than sensor
data. I started this database many years ago when the PSN group was so so much smaller  It has maps showing where everyone is located around the=20= world
and the station data also gives broader info on the types of sensors and recording equip


Hi Dave,

       I fully support your efforts for mainta= ining the Amateur Seismic Database. The larger the number of members, the mo= re the information needs to be formalised.

       I have found it very useful. Thank you=20= very much!

       But could we have a field which dates t= he particular entries, please?

       Have you considered requesting an annua= l update from all members? Something like 'have you checked you entry recent= ly and are there any changes / amendments, please'? Some of the information=20= seems to be quite old and in need of some attention.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:52:45 +1000 At 03:00 PM 7/3/2008 -0400, you wrote:
Hi Dave,
SNIP
      But could we have a field which dates the particular entries, please?
      Have you considered requesting an annual update from all members? Something like 'have you checked you entry recently and are there any changes / amendments, please'? Some of the information seems to be quite old and in need of some attention.
      Regards,
      Chris Chapman


Hi  Chris and group
   Yes Entry Dates,   that has been started after suggestions to me from John Lahr
last week. the Entry/ Update date will be in brackets to the left of the  member
number.
    when I find some time I will go back through at least some of the recent (last ~
couple of years and take some entry dates from when I received emails from
people when they wanted to be added.  I have saved a good number of those
emails.

Yes I usually do an annual  update request and have done so for the last 5+ years
and apart from that, the keeners members send me updates even without my
request  :)
    Unfortunately that doesn't help with members who have "passed away"  or
others who have  just left the seismology game and havent told me to delete them
from the list.  I'm sure there are prob. upwards of 6 stations that could be deleted
What do I do ?  email the 120 odd people directly and see if they respond ??
a time consuming job.  How long do I wait for a reply before deciding if they no
longer exist or just havent bothered to respond, before I delete them myself.  ??

maybe I just have no choice and need to do that   :)

In general the data is reasonably accurate. Particularly when related to the ~ 25%
of  really active stations ... the keen ones :)

some thoughts 

cheers
Dave Nelson
Sydney

Subject: Tungsten Rods From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:07:16 -0700 I have been taking my time to get my first Lehman up and running. First = just to learn how the thing works and then to optimize the operation. In the = last month we have had lots of discussion on various Tungsten rods and other materials for the 2 horizontal rods and ball bearing support system. I = first tried various rod materials by trying to get as long resonant period, = but came to the conclusion this was difficult to repeat. Meredith on his = 6/25 message got me thinking to take a different approach. I reset the Lehman = for a short period (about 10 seconds) and then connected the sensor to the amplifier and watched the display as the amplitude decayed. Now we have something that can be easily measured and repeated. I standardized on measurements for 5 minutes or 300 seconds. The decay equation is Y=3D A = e- t/T where t is time and T is the time constant of the system. For materials = I used hardened steel, stainless steel, tungsten carbide (as received), tungsten carbide (mirror polished) 1/8=94 diameter rods. The ball = bearing is =BC=94 diameter silicon carbide.=20 Here is what I found for the time constants: Hardened steel: 154 seconds Stainless steel: 125 seconds Tungsten carbide ( as received): 155 seconds Tungsten carbide (mirror polish): 191 seconds =20 The goal is to have a high time constant, indicating lower friction. =20 Polishing: The tungsten carbide as received actually had a very good = polish when received, but not quite a mirror finish. I obtained 3 diamond = polishing grit sizes, starting out with 35u, then 15u, and finally 3u. The 35 and = 15u actually made the tungsten carbide rod rougher. I followed Chris = Chapman=92s method for polishing using a bent sheet of copper with the diamond = paste. =20 Conclusion: Polished tungsten carbide rods have the lowest friction. =20 =20 Gary =20 =20 =20 =20 Gary Lindgren 585 Lincoln Ave Palo Alto CA 94301 =20 650-326-0655 =20 = www.blue-eagle-technologies.com cymonsplace.blogspot.com=20 =20 =20

I have been taking my time to get my first Lehman = up and running. First just to learn how the thing works and then to optimize = the operation. In the last month we have had lots of discussion on various Tungsten = rods and other materials for the 2 horizontal rods and ball bearing support = system. I first tried various rod materials by trying to get as long resonant = period, but came to the conclusion this was difficult to repeat. Meredith on his = 6/25 message got me thinking to take a different approach. I reset the Lehman = for a short period (about 10 seconds) and then connected the sensor to the = amplifier and watched the display as the amplitude decayed. Now we have something = that can be easily measured and repeated. I standardized on measurements for = 5 minutes or 300 seconds. The decay equation is Y=3D A e- t/T where t is = time and T is the time constant of the system. For materials I used hardened steel, stainless steel, tungsten carbide (as received), tungsten carbide = (mirror polished) 1/8” diameter rods. The ball bearing is =BC” = diameter silicon carbide.

Here is what I found for the time = constants:

Hardened steel: 154 seconds

Stainless steel: 125 seconds

Tungsten carbide ( as received): 155 = seconds

Tungsten carbide (mirror polish): 191 = seconds

 

The goal is to have a high time constant, = indicating lower friction.

 

Polishing: The tungsten carbide as received = actually had a very good polish when received, but not quite a mirror finish. I = obtained 3 diamond polishing grit sizes, starting out with 35u, then 15u, and = finally 3u. The 35 and 15u actually made the tungsten carbide rod rougher. I = followed Chris Chapman’s method for polishing using a bent sheet of copper with = the diamond paste.

 

Conclusion: Polished tungsten carbide rods have the = lowest friction.

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

Gary Lindgren

585 Lincoln Ave

Palo Alto CA 94301

 

650-326-0655<= /span>

 

www.blue-eagle-technologies.com

cymonsplace.blogspot.com 

 

 

Subject: Re: Tungsten Rods From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:40:18 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/04, gel@................. writes: > I have been taking my time to get my first Lehman up and running. First=20 > just to learn how the thing works and then to optimize the operation. In t= he=20 > last month we have had lots of discussion on various Tungsten rods and oth= er=20 > materials for the 2 horizontal rods and ball bearing support system. I fir= st=20 > tried various rod materials by trying to get as long resonant period, but=20= came=20 > to the conclusion this was difficult to repeat.=20 Hi Gary, You set the longitudinal tilt to get the required period. I can get 3= 0=20 seconds repeatably and quite easily using an 8 thou wire top suspension and=20= a=20 3/8" SS ball + a SS plane as the borrom. It is easier to use a simple vertical pensulum. Meredith on his 6/25 message got me thinking to take a different approach. I= =20 reset=20 > the Lehman for a short period (about 10 seconds) and then connected the=20 > sensor to the amplifier and watched the display as the amplitude decayed.=20= Now we=20 > have something that can be easily measured and repeated. I standardized on= =20 > measurements for 5 minutes or 300 seconds. The decay equation is Y=3D A e-= t/T=20 > where t is time and T is the time constant of the system. For materials I=20= used=20 > hardened steel,=20 No good. It corrodes quickly in use. >> stainless steel, Unless you used EN57 or another HARDENED martensitic stainless, it=20 will be far too soft. The ordinary Austenitic Stainless 304, 316 etc is much= too=20 soft. tungsten carbide (as received), tungsten carbide (mirror polished)=20 > 1/8=E2=80=9D diameter rods. The ball bearing is =C2=BC=E2=80=9D diameter s= ilicon carbide.=20 >=20 > Here is what I found for the time constants: >=20 > Hardened steel: 154 seconds >=20 > Stainless steel: 125 seconds >=20 > Tungsten carbide ( as received): 155 seconds >=20 > Tungsten carbide (mirror polish): 191 seconds These decay times are far too short to be correct. The decay also=20 depends on the rigidity of the support, any air resistance of the mass, the=20 roughness of the rods / balls, losses in the pendulum structure itself, the=20 dimensions of the rolling elements and on the swing angle. If you use an coi= l + magnet=20 sensor, this usually damps the pendulum A LOT. Was there a resistor across=20 the input to the amplifier? > The goal is to have a high time constant, indicating lower friction. > Polishing: The tungsten carbide as received actually had a very good polis= h=20 > when received, but not quite a mirror finish. I obtained 3 diamond polishi= ng=20 > grit sizes, starting out with 35u, then 15u, and finally 3u. The 35 and 15= u=20 > actually made the tungsten carbide rod rougher. I followed Chris Chapman= =E2=80=99s=20 > method for polishing using a bent sheet of copper with the diamond paste. > Conclusion: Polished tungsten carbide rods have the lowest friction. >> The decay equation is Y=3D A e- t/T=20 Unfortunately this is a myth. A free swinging pendulum does not behav= e=20 as a simple harmonic oscillator and decays with Coulomb type damping. See Randall Peters paper=20 http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0306/0306081.pdf A SS ball bearing and a 1/4 section of polished skin graft scalpel=20 blade are the cheapest suspension <50c. Regards, Chris Chapman =20 In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/04, gel@................. writes:

I have been taking my time to g= et my first Lehman up and running. First just to learn how the thing works a= nd then to optimize the operation. In the last month we have had lots of dis= cussion on various Tungsten rods and other materials for the 2 horizontal ro= ds and ball bearing support system. I first tried various rod materials by t= rying to get as long resonant period, but came to the conclusion this was di= fficult to repeat.


Hi Gary,

       You set the longitudinal tilt to get th= e required period. I can get 30 seconds repeatably and quite easily using an= 8 thou wire top suspension and a 3/8" SS ball + a SS plane as the borrom.
       It is easier to use a simple vertical p= ensulum.

Meredith on his 6/25 message got me thinking to take a different approach. I= reset

the Lehman for a short period=20= (about 10 seconds) and then connected the sensor to the amplifier and watche= d the display as the amplitude decayed. Now we have something that can be ea= sily measured and repeated. I standardized on measurements for 5 minutes or=20= 300 seconds. The decay equation is Y=3D A e- t/T where t is time and T is th= e time constant of the system. For materials I used hardened steel, <= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"= SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">

       No good. It corrodes quickly in use.
>> stainless steel,

       Unless you used EN57 or another HARDENE= D martensitic stainless, it will be far too soft. The ordinary Austenitic St= ainless 304, 316 etc is much too soft.

tungsten carbide (as received), tungsten carbide (mirror polished)
<= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"= SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
1/8=E2=80=9D diameter rods. Th= e ball bearing is =C2=BC=E2=80=9D diameter silicon carbide.

Here is what I found for the time constants:

Hardened steel: 154 seconds

Stainless steel: 125 seconds

Tungsten carbide ( as received): 155 seconds

Tungsten carbide (mirror polish): 191 seconds


       These decay times are far too short to=20= be correct. The decay also depends on the rigidity of the support, any air r= esistance of the mass, the roughness of the rods / balls, losses in the pend= ulum structure itself, the dimensions of the rolling elements and on the swi= ng angle. If you use an coil + magnet sensor, this usually damps the pendulu= m A LOT. Was there a resistor across the input to the amplifier?

The goal is to have a high time= constant, indicating lower friction.
Polishing: The tungsten carbide as received actually had a very good polish=20= when received, but not quite a mirror finish. I obtained 3 diamond polishing= grit sizes, starting out with 35u, then 15u, and finally 3u. The 35 and 15u= actually made the tungsten carbide rod rougher. I followed Chris Chapman= =E2=80=99s method for polishing using a bent sheet of copper with the diamon= d paste.
Conclusion: Polished tungsten carbide rods have the lowest friction.

>>   The decay equation is Y=3D A e- t/T

       Unfortunately this is a myth. A free sw= inging pendulum does not behave as a simple harmonic oscillator and decays w= ith Coulomb type damping.

       See Randall Peters paper http://arxiv.o= rg/ftp/physics/papers/0306/0306081.pdf

       A SS ball bearing and a 1/4 section of=20= polished skin graft scalpel blade are the cheapest suspension <50c.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: amateur seismologist database From: Jan Froom JDarwin@............. Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:41:45 -0700 Yep... we're simply visually monitoring earth movements on a drum recorder, including but not limited to earthquakes. I have a four foot long drum recorder at Gilroy Gardens Theme Park here in Gilroy CA, and people from all around come just to see what earthquakes look like. They are amazed we can actually see ocean activity 15 miles away and are mesmerized watching the pen movement. I had the option of either going with a computerized digital seismograph display or a drum recorder... the drum recorder won hands down for public viewing. I've always found Dave's data base extremely useful when explaining about the PSN and the world wide connection of this amateur seismic group. I for one really appreciate Dave's work... Thanks Dave! Jan in Gilroy CA Thomas Dick wrote: > > Here I go again, showing my ignorance...... Just what does this mean? > In this day and age of digital verses analog, filtrating of > frequencies, short period versas long period and maybe even paper > seismograms --what are these people doing??? Please take this right. I > am trying to get a clear picture. Are they just visually monitoring > for earthquakes? > >> >> You are knocking something that has been VERY useful to many people >> for some 15 years :) > > No, Dave, I did not want my remarks to infer that I am "knocking" what > you are doing. I am trying to understand what you have. I cannot > criticize what I don't understand. But your dialogue allows > communication and better understanding as to whether/why I would want > to post information on the database. > >> > Maybe this dialog can help others in the same experience level as I. > Please --- keep up the work! > > Yours, just plain Tom > Yep... we're simply visually monitoring earth movements on a drum recorder, including but not limited to earthquakes.
I have a four foot long drum recorder at Gilroy Gardens Theme Park here in Gilroy CA,  and people from all around come just to see what earthquakes look like.  They are amazed we can actually see ocean activity 15 miles away and are mesmerized watching the pen movement. 

I had the option of either going with a computerized digital seismograph display or a drum recorder... the drum recorder won hands down for public viewing.

I've always found Dave's data base extremely useful when explaining about the PSN and the world wide connection of this amateur seismic group.  I for one really appreciate Dave's work... Thanks Dave!

Jan in Gilroy CA



Thomas Dick wrote:

Here I go again, showing my ignorance...... Just what does this mean?  In this day and age of digital verses analog, filtrating of frequencies, short period versas long period and maybe even paper seismograms --what are these people doing??? Please take this right. I am trying to get a clear picture. Are they just visually monitoring for earthquakes?


You are knocking something that has been VERY useful to many people for some 15 years   :)

No, Dave, I did not want my remarks to infer that I am "knocking" what you are doing. I am trying to understand what you have. I cannot criticize what I don't understand. But your dialogue allows communication and better understanding as to whether/why I would want to post information on the database.


Maybe this dialog can help others in the same experience level as I. Please --- keep up the work!

Yours, just plain Tom

Subject: Re: Tungsten Rods From: "Dale Hardy" photon1@........... Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 16:40:40 +1000 Excellent Gary, that is what it is all about, experimenting and testing the theories and = views expressed, then coming to your own conclusions, pleae keep it up regards Dale ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gary Lindgren=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 9:07 AM Subject: Tungsten Rods I have been taking my time to get my first Lehman up and running. = First just to learn how the thing works and then to optimize the = operation. In the last month we have had lots of discussion on various = Tungsten rods and other materials for the 2 horizontal rods and ball = bearing support system. I first tried various rod materials by trying to = get as long resonant period, but came to the conclusion this was = difficult to repeat. Meredith on his 6/25 message got me thinking to = take a different approach. I reset the Lehman for a short period (about = 10 seconds) and then connected the sensor to the amplifier and watched = the display as the amplitude decayed. Now we have something that can be = easily measured and repeated. I standardized on measurements for 5 = minutes or 300 seconds. The decay equation is Y=3D A e- t/T where t is = time and T is the time constant of the system. For materials I used = hardened steel, stainless steel, tungsten carbide (as received), = tungsten carbide (mirror polished) 1/8" diameter rods. The ball bearing = is =BC" diameter silicon carbide.=20 Here is what I found for the time constants: Hardened steel: 154 seconds Stainless steel: 125 seconds Tungsten carbide ( as received): 155 seconds Tungsten carbide (mirror polish): 191 seconds =20 The goal is to have a high time constant, indicating lower friction. =20 Polishing: The tungsten carbide as received actually had a very good = polish when received, but not quite a mirror finish. I obtained 3 = diamond polishing grit sizes, starting out with 35u, then 15u, and = finally 3u. The 35 and 15u actually made the tungsten carbide rod = rougher. I followed Chris Chapman's method for polishing using a bent = sheet of copper with the diamond paste. =20 Conclusion: Polished tungsten carbide rods have the lowest friction. =20 =20 Gary =20 =20 =20 =20 Gary Lindgren 585 Lincoln Ave Palo Alto CA 94301 =20 650-326-0655 =20 www.blue-eagle-technologies.com cymonsplace.blogspot.com=20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.3 - Release Date: 28/06/2008 = 12:00 AM
Excellent Gary,
that is what it is all about, = experimenting and=20 testing the theories and views expressed, then coming to your own=20 conclusions,
pleae keep it up
regards
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Gary=20 Lindgren
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 = 9:07 AM
Subject: Tungsten Rods

I have been taking my time to get my first Lehman = up and=20 running. First just to learn how the thing works and then to optimize = the=20 operation. In the last month we have had lots of discussion on various = Tungsten rods and other materials for the 2 horizontal rods and ball = bearing=20 support system. I first tried various rod materials by trying to get = as long=20 resonant period, but came to the conclusion this was difficult to = repeat.=20 Meredith on his 6/25 message got me thinking to take a different = approach. I=20 reset the Lehman for a short period (about 10 seconds) and then = connected the=20 sensor to the amplifier and watched the display as the amplitude = decayed. Now=20 we have something that can be easily measured and repeated. I = standardized on=20 measurements for 5 minutes or 300 seconds. The decay equation is Y=3D = A e- t/T=20 where t is time and T is the time constant of the system. For = materials I used=20 hardened steel, stainless steel, tungsten carbide (as received), = tungsten=20 carbide (mirror polished) 1/8=94 diameter rods. The ball bearing is = =BC=94 diameter=20 silicon carbide.

Here is what I found for the time = constants:

Hardened steel: 154 seconds

Stainless steel: 125 seconds

Tungsten carbide ( as received): 155 = seconds

Tungsten carbide (mirror polish): 191=20 seconds

 

The goal is to have a high time constant, = indicating lower=20 friction.

 

Polishing: The tungsten carbide as received = actually had a=20 very good polish when received, but not quite a mirror finish. I = obtained 3=20 diamond polishing grit sizes, starting out with 35u, then 15u, and = finally 3u.=20 The 35 and 15u actually made the tungsten carbide rod rougher. I = followed=20 Chris Chapman=92s method for polishing using a bent sheet of copper = with the=20 diamond paste.

 

Conclusion: Polished tungsten carbide rods have = the lowest=20 friction.

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

Gary=20 Lindgren

585=20 Lincoln Ave

Palo=20 Alto CA 94301

 

650-326-0655

 

www.blue-eagle-technologies.com

cymonsplace.blogspot.com 

 

 


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.=20
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.3 - Release Date: = 28/06/2008=20 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: amateur seismologist database From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 18:36:36 +1000 Jan,
  you'll get me all teary eyed  ;)
   I so miss my old paper drum recorder that I had in New Zealand.   It was far to
big to ship to australia  :(
  Watching the ink pen trace out on the paper was indeed mesmerizing I used to
just sit there for many minutes at a time some times just watching the micro
seisms and other general man-made noise and then periodically I would be around
 when the alarm went off and the pen really started swinging!
 .... those were the days  ;)
Had a drum recorder first  then later on it ran concurrently with the digital system
till I left NZ.

take care
Dave Nelson
Sydney

At 09:41 PM 7/3/2008 -0700, you wrote:
Yep... we're simply visually monitoring earth movements on a drum recorder, including but not limited to earthquakes.
I have a four foot long drum recorder at Gilroy Gardens Theme Park here in Gilroy CA,  and people from all around come just to see what earthquakes look like.  They are amazed we can actually see ocean activity 15 miles away and are mesmerized watching the pen movement. 

SNIP

Jan in Gilroy CA
Subject: Re: Tungsten Rods From: Brett Nordgren Brett3nt@............. Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:25:27 -0400 Gary, I agree with Chris that the decay times are likely being affected by the=20 rigidity of your setup. Precision pendulum clock makers learned long ago=20 that they needed to have an extremely rigid mounting from which to hang the= =20 pendulum, or the energy loss could be considerable. Air resistance is a=20 smaller effect at our long periods, but with a good enough pivot, you might= =20 be able to see its effect. It's my opinion that a decaying exponential is a decent approximation to=20 what you will normally observe. There are undoubtedly second-order=20 nonlinearities due to all sorts of things, as observed by Dr.=20 Peters. Plotting the difference between what you observe and a theoretical= =20 exponential curve might be interesting, but I argue that the difference=20 will not be all that large. Possibly worth some more experiments? It would be interesting to see how a rolling foil pivot would=20 perform. See: http://bnordgren.org/seismo/RollingLehman.pdf and=20 http://bnordgren.org/seismo/zerohng2.pdf In theory that should have=20 virtually no friction. It might not be easy to implement as the hinge=20 would need to be on the back side of the support from the boom, and you=20 would need some sort of way for the boom to wrap around the support. That= =20 is shown in "RollingLehman.pdf", which is a top view of two possible ways=20 of designing the pivot. That pdf also includes a sketch of the hinge=20 design which I got from Chris Chapman. Also, you would need to carefully=20 adjust the support wire length so that the tension on the upper and lower=20 foils will be roughly equal. With that arrangement, most damping would=20 likely be from motions of the top of the support rod. The foils should be= =20 as thin as you can make them. If the mass isn't too great, you might be=20 able to use .001" foil. Regards, Brett At 04:07 PM 7/3/2008 -0700, you wrote: >I have been taking my time to get my first Lehman up and running. First=20 >just to learn how the thing works and then to optimize the operation. In=20 >the last month we have had lots of discussion on various Tungsten rods and= =20 >other materials for the 2 horizontal rods and ball bearing support system.= =20 >I first tried various rod materials by trying to get as long resonant=20 >period, but came to the conclusion this was difficult to repeat. Meredith= =20 >on his 6/25 message got me thinking to take a different approach. I reset= =20 >the Lehman for a short period (about 10 seconds) and then connected the=20 >sensor to the amplifier and watched the display as the amplitude decayed.= =20 >Now we have something that can be easily measured and repeated. I=20 >standardized on measurements for 5 minutes or 300 seconds. The decay=20 >equation is Y=3D A e- t/T where t is time and T is the time constant of the= =20 >system. For materials I used hardened steel, stainless steel, tungsten=20 >carbide (as received), tungsten carbide (mirror polished) 1/8 diameter=20 >rods. The ball bearing is =BC diameter silicon carbide. > >Here is what I found for the time constants: > >Hardened steel: 154 seconds > >Stainless steel: 125 seconds > >Tungsten carbide ( as received): 155 seconds > >Tungsten carbide (mirror polish): 191 seconds > > > >The goal is to have a high time constant, indicating lower friction. > > > >Polishing: The tungsten carbide as received actually had a very good=20 >polish when received, but not quite a mirror finish. I obtained 3 diamond= =20 >polishing grit sizes, starting out with 35u, then 15u, and finally 3u. The= =20 >35 and 15u actually made the tungsten carbide rod rougher. I followed=20 >Chris Chapman s method for polishing using a bent sheet of copper with the= =20 >diamond paste. > > > >Conclusion: Polished tungsten carbide rods have the lowest friction. > > > > > >Gary > > > > > > > > > >Gary Lindgren > >585 Lincoln Ave > >Palo Alto CA 94301 > > > >650-326-0655 > > > >www.blue-eagle-technologies.com > >cymonsplace.blogspot.com > > > > My e-mail address above should be working, but if not you can always use my mail form at: http://bnordgren.org/contactB.html using your Web browser.=20 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tungsten Rods From: Charles Patton charles.r.patton@........ Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:53:42 -0700 Hi Brett, You may recall that I suggested a rolling “rocking chair” like sensor a while back. Well I built one out of two ½” floor pipe flanges and a ½” x 3” pipe nipple. I took care to machine the flange edges round and somewhat smooth with valve grinding compound. A couple of pieces of ¼” threaded rod at right-angles to the axis of the nipple balanced the “rocking chair.” I always had in the background the thought that this would then be a rolling band bearing pivot. But to simply the first tests, I wrapped a single 0.001” stainless steel wire around each flange edge and placed the rolling affair on a piece of glass. I adjusted to about 5 seconds period and could get a couple of swings. Bah humbug. But thinking about it, I wondered if the “softness” of the SS wire might be the problem, so I switched to some 0.01” diameter music wire – much harder. Things were considerably improved. The whole thing was still not tremendous because now I could see actual problems with smoothness of the roll – probably specks of dust in the path of the bearing points. So conclusions I took away from this test and the discussions in this thread. 1) Even very small amounts of friction, such as the compressions of non-elastic soft steel, can be detrimental. Use only hardened wire or foil such as spring steel for the bands. 2) I feel wire is preferable to foil as the ability to “cut” through specs of dust will help in real life environments. 3) Use the smallest diameter pivot commensurate with fatigue failure properties of the wire vs. pivot diameter. This in order to give maximum ratio of leverage of the pendulum bob to the pivot roll wire diameter/friction. While on the subject of pivots, I’m going to start another thread with a question for you Brett. Regards, Charles R Patton Brett Nordgren wrote: > Gary, > > I agree with Chris that the decay times are likely being affected by the > rigidity of your setup. Precision pendulum clock makers learned long > ago that they needed to have an extremely rigid mounting from which to > hang the pendulum, or the energy loss could be considerable. Air > resistance is a smaller effect at our long periods, but with a good > enough pivot, you might be able to see its effect. > > It's my opinion that a decaying exponential is a decent approximation to > what you will normally observe. There are undoubtedly second-order > nonlinearities due to all sorts of things, as observed by Dr. Peters. > Plotting the difference between what you observe and a theoretical > exponential curve might be interesting, but I argue that the difference > will not be all that large. Possibly worth some more experiments? > > It would be interesting to see how a rolling foil pivot would perform. > See: http://bnordgren.org/seismo/RollingLehman.pdf and > http://bnordgren.org/seismo/zerohng2.pdf In theory that should have > virtually no friction. It might not be easy to implement as the hinge > would need to be on the back side of the support from the boom, and you > would need some sort of way for the boom to wrap around the support. > That is shown in "RollingLehman.pdf", which is a top view of two > possible ways of designing the pivot. That pdf also includes a sketch > of the hinge design which I got from Chris Chapman. Also, you would > need to carefully adjust the support wire length so that the tension on > the upper and lower foils will be roughly equal. With that arrangement, > most damping would likely be from motions of the top of the support > rod. The foils should be as thin as you can make them. If the mass > isn't too great, you might be able to use .001" foil. > > Regards, > Brett > > At 04:07 PM 7/3/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >> I have been taking my time to get my first Lehman up and running. >> First just to learn how the thing works and then to optimize the >> operation. In the last month we have had lots of discussion on various >> Tungsten rods and other materials for the 2 horizontal rods and ball >> bearing support system. I first tried various rod materials by trying >> to get as long resonant period, but came to the conclusion this was >> difficult to repeat. Meredith on his 6/25 message got me thinking to >> take a different approach. I reset the Lehman for a short period >> (about 10 seconds) and then connected the sensor to the amplifier and >> watched the display as the amplitude decayed. Now we have something >> that can be easily measured and repeated. I standardized on >> measurements for 5 minutes or 300 seconds. The decay equation is Y= A >> e- t/T where t is time and T is the time constant of the system. For >> materials I used hardened steel, stainless steel, tungsten carbide (as >> received), tungsten carbide (mirror polished) 1/8 diameter rods. The >> ball bearing is ¼ diameter silicon carbide. >> >> Here is what I found for the time constants: >> >> Hardened steel: 154 seconds >> >> Stainless steel: 125 seconds >> >> Tungsten carbide ( as received): 155 seconds >> >> Tungsten carbide (mirror polish): 191 seconds >> >> >> >> The goal is to have a high time constant, indicating lower friction. >> >> >> >> Polishing: The tungsten carbide as received actually had a very good >> polish when received, but not quite a mirror finish. I obtained 3 >> diamond polishing grit sizes, starting out with 35u, then 15u, and >> finally 3u. The 35 and 15u actually made the tungsten carbide rod >> rougher. I followed Chris Chapman s method for polishing using a bent >> sheet of copper with the diamond paste. >> >> >> >> Conclusion: Polished tungsten carbide rods have the lowest friction. >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary Lindgren >> >> 585 Lincoln Ave >> >> Palo Alto CA 94301 >> >> >> >> 650-326-0655 >> >> >> >> www.blue-eagle-technologies.com >> >> cymonsplace.blogspot.com >> >> >> >> > > > > My e-mail address above should be working, but if not > you can always use my mail form at: http://bnordgren.org/contactB.html > using your Web browser. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: A vertical and horizontal sensing pendulum From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:22:30 -0600 Hi all, This web page is of a novel but likely dated ~1 second pendulum, that could respond to vertical and horizontal mass movements. What the heck; it is kind of interesting...but it would likely need high gain sensors. No springs necessary. A possible "twofer"....the price of one support frame. The bottom pic is probably the best. http://seismometer.googlepages.com/vh Take care, Meredith
Hi all,
 
This web page is of a novel but likely dated ~1 second pendulum, that could respond to vertical and horizontal
mass movements.  What the heck; it is kind of interesting...but it would likely need high gain sensors.
No springs necessary.  A possible "twofer"....the price of one support frame.  The bottom pic is probably the best.
 
 
Take care, Meredith
 
 
Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:02:10 -0700 Chris and Tom, A/D data is time stamped at the digitizer board (http://www.seismicnet.com/serialatod.html), when a GPS receiver is connected to it. WinSDR does not use the computer's time when GPS time is used as a reference. If everything is working correctly the accuracy should be under +-4 milliseconds, will within one sample time at 100 samples per second. The GPS receiver connected to the board must have a 1 pulse per second (PPS) signal, that is why the board only supports the Garmin GPS 16/18 sensor and the now obsolete Motorola ONCORE receiver. The firmware on the board maintains an accumulator, incremented by a 1 millisecond interrupt, that contains the time of day (UTC time) down to the millisecond. This 1 ms interrupt also monitors the 1 PPS GPS signal. At the top of the second the accumulator time is saved and sent to the host computer (running WinSDR) along with the ADC data. It's up to the host computer to adjust the ADC time accumulator, by sending commands to the board, to stay within a few milliseconds of UTC time. The time of day from the GPS NMEA messages is also parsed and sent to the host computer so it knows what second the pulse happened at. Tom, You should not be trying to use earthquakes to check your station timing! There are just too many variables. The accuracy of the travel time tables being one of them. If you suspect that your timing is not correct you should inject a signal at a known time into the A/D board and viewing the results in WinQuake. One way of doing this is to disturb the sensor at the top of the minute by listening to one of the WWV stations and jumping next to the sensor right at the top of the minute mark. Another way would be to connect a 1.5 volt battery to the input of the A/D channel, again right at the top of the minute mark. With a little practice you should be able able to get you test pulse to within +-100 ms of UTC time. While a test like this will not give you millisecond accuracy it should be good enough to make sure you are within +- 1/2 second of UTC time. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > I am not sure how WinSDR actually does the timing, even when corrected > by GPS. The display program will presumably use the software clock on your > computer. Have you asked Larry? The software clocks fitted to PC computers are > often crap. They can loose or gain 10s of minutes per day. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tungsten Rods (again) From: Brett Nordgren Brett3nt@............. Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:46:55 -0400 Gary, One correction to what I'd written previously. In corresponding with Chris and re-reading Dr. Peters' paper, I have had to conclude that for pivots in general, as well as for other elements which aren't specifically designed to be velocity dampers, their resistance force has no reason to be accurately proportional to velocity. I believe that velocity relation is needed to derive the exponential shape for the envelope decay. Under some conditions air resistance might possibly act as a form of velocity damper, but hinges in general, probably don't. Therefore, as Chris says, the oscillation decay probably isn't going to be exponential to any great degree of accuracy. Regards, Brett At 04:07 PM 7/3/2008 -0700, you wrote: >I have been taking my time to get my first Lehman up and running. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Europe Update From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:46:45 +1000 Hi gang Trust everyone in the USA is having a good 4th July celebrations As promised I have revamped the UK-Europe map to one of much of better quality and resolution http://www.sydneystormcity.com/eu.htm Dont forget .... if you dont see it when you visit the page .... click on your refresh button :) I will work my way through some other areas as I'm able to In particular Hawaii in on the "to do" list yup just for you Tony ;) take care all Have a good weekend Dave N Sydney __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Okhotsk Mw7.5 earthquake From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 06:58:33 +0000 Hi all I am surpriced by the fact how well the Okhotsk did appear on my station. The earthquakes P wave is actually visable on both of my station. It is even stronger at Hekla sensor then on my station here at Hvammstangi. It did also appear on the Mosfellsb=E6r station, but at a lot lower degree as that station has lower gain. The depth of this quake was 631 km according to EMSC. But one thing is for sure, this earthquake did appear unusaly clear on my stations. More details on the earthquake can be found here. http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Ddetail&id=3D91500 Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Europe Update From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 07:01:50 +0000 Hi I will send you a update when I move to Denmark sometimes in the year 2010. Don't worry. I am going to run few sensors in Iceland and collect the data over the internet. Regards. J=F3n Fr=EDmann. On Sat, 2008-07-05 at 16:46 +1000, Dave Nelson wrote: > Hi gang > Trust everyone in the USA is having a good 4th July=20 > celebrations >=20 > As promised I have revamped the UK-Europe map to one of much of > better quality and resolution http://www.sydneystormcity.com/eu.htm > Dont forget .... if you dont see it when you visit the page .... cli= ck=20 > on your > refresh button :) >=20 > I will work my way through some other areas as I'm able to > In particular Hawaii in on the "to do" list yup just for you Tony = ;) >=20 > take care all > Have a good weekend >=20 > Dave N > Sydney >=20 > __________________________________________________________ >=20 > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >=20 > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with=20 > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Okhotsk Mw7.5 earthquake From: "Ian Smith" ian@........... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 08:25:14 +0100 Hi, my Lehman is still having sensitivity problems, though it did pick it up bu= t the surprising thing is that my geophone got a huge signal. The level of signal is roughly equvalent to my jumping on top of the enclosure box - I kid you not! So anyone awake in the UK at that time migh= t well have felt it. It's at http://www.iasmith.com Ian On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 7:58 AM, J=F3n Fr=EDmann wrote: > Hi all > > I am surpriced by the fact how well the Okhotsk did appear on my > station. The earthquakes P wave is actually visable on both of my > station. It is even stronger at Hekla sensor then on my station here at > Hvammstangi. It did also appear on the Mosfellsb=E6r station, but at a lo= t > lower degree as that station has lower gain. > > The depth of this quake was 631 km according to EMSC. But one thing is > for sure, this earthquake did appear unusaly clear on my stations. > > More details on the earthquake can be found here. > http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Ddetail&id=3D91500 > > Regards. > -- > J=F3n Fr=EDmann > http://www.jonfr.com > http://earthquakes.jonfr.com > http://www.net303.net > http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >
Hi,
 
my Lehman is still having sensitivity problems, though it did pick it = up but the surprising thing is that my geophone got a huge signal.
 
The level of signal is roughly equvalent to my jumping on top of the e= nclosure box - I kid you not!  So anyone awake in the UK at that time = might well have felt it.  It's at http://www.iasmith.com
 
Ian

 
On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 7:58 AM, J=F3n Fr=EDmann = <jonfr@.........> wrote:
Hi all

I am surpriced by = the fact how well the Okhotsk did appear on my
station. The earthquakes = P wave is actually visable on both of my
station. It is even stronger at Hekla sensor then on my station here at
= Hvammstangi. It did also appear on the Mosfellsb=E6r station, but at a lot<= br>lower degree as that station has lower gain.

The depth of this qu= ake was 631 km according to EMSC. But one thing is
for sure, this earthquake did appear unusaly clear on my stations.

M= ore details on the earthquake can be found here.
http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Dd= etail&id=3D91500

Regards.
--
J=F3n Fr=EDmann
http://www.jonfr.com
http://earthquakes.jonfr.com
http://www.net303.net
http://www.mo= bile-coverage.com/

_____________________________________________= _____________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

To = leave this list email PSN-L= -REQUEST@.............. with
the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://www.seismic= net.com/maillist.html for more information.

Subject: Re: Okhotsk Mw7.5 earthquake From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 07:38:56 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/05, ian@........... writes: > my Lehman is still having sensitivity problems, though it did pick it up > but the surprising thing is that my geophone got a huge signal. > > The level of signal is roughly equvalent to my jumping on top of the > enclosure box - I kid you not! So anyone awake in the UK at that time might well > have felt it. It's at http://www.iasmith.com Hi Ian, It was very deep, 605 km, so the surface waves would be relatively weak and about 150 degrees. It came through strongly on the modified AS1. I can't read http://www.iasmith.com ---> I just get ''can't find the web page''. Can you fix it please? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/05, ian@........... writes:

my Lehman is still having sensi= tivity problems, though it did pick it up but the surprising thing is that m= y geophone got a huge signal.

The level of signal is roughly equvalent to my jumping on top of the enclosu= re box - I kid you not!  So anyone awake in the UK at that time might w= ell have felt it.  It's at http://w= ww.iasmith.com


Hi Ian,

       It was very deep, 605 km, so the surfac= e waves would be relatively weak and about 150 degrees.

       It came through strongly on the modifie= d AS1.

       I can't read http://www.iasmith.com ---> I just get ''can't find the web= page''. Can you fix it please?

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Okhotsk Mw7.5 earthquake From: Steinar Midtskogen steinar@............. Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:14:30 +0200 {Jón Frímann] > Hi all > > I am surpriced by the fact how well the Okhotsk did appear on my > station. The earthquakes P wave is actually visable on both of my > station. It is even stronger at Hekla sensor then on my station here at > Hvammstangi. It did also appear on the Mosfellsbær station, but at a lot > lower degree as that station has lower gain. It totally swamped my station in Oslo 6917 km away, even the P wave: http://voksenlia.net/nytt/2008/seismo-20080705.jpg I've put a SAC file from 02:12 to 04:12 on: http://voksenlia.net/nytt/2008/seismo-20080705.sac Regards, -- Steinar Midtskogen http://voksenlia.net __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: Charles R Patton charles.r.patton@........ Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 09:23:51 -0700 Hi Brett, I tried to send this yesterday, but think I messed up the addressing, but it gave me a chance to correct a couple of errors. Question: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? Discussion: Assume: 1) That the Lehman is constructed in a typical “garden gate” fashion with a horizontal main beam with rolling pivot and a suspension wire to the pivot bearing. 2) At the point of the rolling pivot, the wire does not bend. I.e., the wire/pivot may be considered rigid in that area. This constraint will hold true if the wire rigidity is greater than the torque required to roll the pivot. Something I believe is a reasonable constraint/assumption. So, if the Lehman is adjusted to a long period, a very small change in the geometry will lead to big changes in period/stability. In particular, with the suspension wire version it seems to me that as the beam moves from a centered position, the effective length of the suspension wire increases due to the movement of the pivot contact point around the diameter of the pivot rod along with the contact point moving sideways along the line of contact. Making it simple to do the mind experiment imagine going through 90 degrees. The wire lengthens by ½ the rod diameter. The contact point moves sideways by ¼ x pi x dia or approx 0.78 dia. So as the pivot rotates, the wire length starts to lengthen by 0.5 dia, which is the condition for stability. Now the lower beam pivot does the same thing but acts in the direction to shorten it by 0.5 dia. The sideways motions do not cancel but lead to increased rotation of the gate. By definition, the wire is at an angle to the beam, so that means that in all real constructions, the lower beam shortening effect is larger than the suspension wire effect (cos(wire/beam angle) x 0.5), but both effects lead to a lowering of the bob as it moves sideways. Energy constraints say that the bob wants to go to the lowest potential energy (flopping). This does not consider the additional effects that the gate is twisting due to the rolling pivots. So is this a possible explanation of the difficulty many people describe in trying to adjust a Lehman? I pose this to you since you’ve always been good with the mechanical simulations to see if I’m way off in this conjecture. An added question is this: What is the effect of the moving effective pivot point in a flexture pivot? Since a standard rectangular shim (or rod/wire) flexure point cannot not have a fixed point due to the stress/strain relationships as the flexure bends and the weight shifts to a side load the point would move back (?) towards the upright on the upper wire/beam and probably towards the support (again shortening the beam and lowering the bob) on a lower tension type flexure. Am I all wet --a welcome condition on a hot, hot 4th of July? (I started this email on the 4^th and did some corrections on the 5th) Comments welcome. Regards, Charles R. Patton __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Okhotsk Mw7.5 earthquake From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 09:50:56 -0700 (PDT) My recording is at www dot rowelabs dot com right now 16:45 utc. The quake a little over an hour before the big one is a 2.7 near me on the = east side of San Jose, CA. I have a lot of these to keep me interested. Pete --- On Fri, 7/4/08, J=F3n Fr=EDmann wrote: > From: J=F3n Fr=EDmann > Subject: Okhotsk Mw7.5 earthquake > To: "PSN-Postlist" > Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 11:58 PM > Hi all >=20 > I am surpriced by the fact how well the Okhotsk did appear > on my > station. The earthquakes P wave is actually visable on both > of my > station. It is even stronger at Hekla sensor then on my > station here at > Hvammstangi. It did also appear on the Mosfellsb=E6r > station, but at a lot > lower degree as that station has lower gain. >=20 > The depth of this quake was 631 km according to EMSC. But > one thing is > for sure, this earthquake did appear unusaly clear on my > stations. >=20 > More details on the earthquake can be found here. > http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Ddetail&id=3D91500 >=20 > Regards. > --=20 > J=F3n Fr=EDmann > http://www.jonfr.com > http://earthquakes.jonfr.com > http://www.net303.net > http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ >=20 > __________________________________________________________ >=20 > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >=20 > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > information.=0A=0A=0A __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Okhotsk Mw7.5 earthquake From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 09:50:56 -0700 (PDT) My recording is at www dot rowelabs dot com right now 16:45 utc. The quake a little over an hour before the big one is a 2.7 near me on the = east side of San Jose, CA. I have a lot of these to keep me interested. Pete --- On Fri, 7/4/08, J=F3n Fr=EDmann wrote: > From: J=F3n Fr=EDmann > Subject: Okhotsk Mw7.5 earthquake > To: "PSN-Postlist" > Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 11:58 PM > Hi all >=20 > I am surpriced by the fact how well the Okhotsk did appear > on my > station. The earthquakes P wave is actually visable on both > of my > station. It is even stronger at Hekla sensor then on my > station here at > Hvammstangi. It did also appear on the Mosfellsb=E6r > station, but at a lot > lower degree as that station has lower gain. >=20 > The depth of this quake was 631 km according to EMSC. But > one thing is > for sure, this earthquake did appear unusaly clear on my > stations. >=20 > More details on the earthquake can be found here. > http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Ddetail&id=3D91500 >=20 > Regards. > --=20 > J=F3n Fr=EDmann > http://www.jonfr.com > http://earthquakes.jonfr.com > http://www.net303.net > http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ >=20 > __________________________________________________________ >=20 > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >=20 > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > information.=0A=0A=0A __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 10:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Hi Larry I have several types of GPS boards, all of which have 1 pps outputs. What is special about the Garmin and Oncore? Pete --- On Fri, 7/4/08, Larry Cochrane wrote: > From: Larry Cochrane > Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR > To: psn-l@.............. > Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 4:02 PM > Chris and Tom, > > A/D data is time stamped at the digitizer board > (http://www.seismicnet.com/serialatod.html), when a GPS > receiver is connected to it. > WinSDR does not use the computer's time when GPS time > is used as a reference. If > everything is working correctly the accuracy should be > under +-4 milliseconds, will > within one sample time at 100 samples per second. The GPS > receiver connected to the > board must have a 1 pulse per second (PPS) signal, that is > why the board only > supports the Garmin GPS 16/18 sensor and the now obsolete > Motorola ONCORE receiver. > > The firmware on the board maintains an accumulator, > incremented by a 1 millisecond > interrupt, that contains the time of day (UTC time) down to > the millisecond. This 1 > ms interrupt also monitors the 1 PPS GPS signal. At the top > of the second the > accumulator time is saved and sent to the host computer > (running WinSDR) along with > the ADC data. It's up to the host computer to adjust > the ADC time accumulator, by > sending commands to the board, to stay within a few > milliseconds of UTC time. The > time of day from the GPS NMEA messages is also parsed and > sent to the host computer > so it knows what second the pulse happened at. > > Tom, > > You should not be trying to use earthquakes to check your > station timing! There are > just too many variables. The accuracy of the travel time > tables being one of them. If > you suspect that your timing is not correct you should > inject a signal at a known > time into the A/D board and viewing the results in > WinQuake. One way of doing this is > to disturb the sensor at the top of the minute by listening > to one of the WWV > stations and jumping next to the sensor right at the top of > the minute mark. Another > way would be to connect a 1.5 volt battery to the input of > the A/D channel, again > right at the top of the minute mark. With a little practice > you should be able able > to get you test pulse to within +-100 ms of UTC time. While > a test like this will not > give you millisecond accuracy it should be good enough to > make sure you are within +- > 1/2 second of UTC time. > > Regards, > Larry Cochrane > Redwood City, PSN > > ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > > I am not sure how WinSDR actually does the > timing, even when corrected > > by GPS. The display program will presumably use the > software clock on your > > computer. Have you asked Larry? The software clocks > fitted to PC computers are > > often crap. They can loose or gain 10s of minutes per > day. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 17:57:14 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes: > Discussion: > Assume: > 1) That the Lehman is constructed in a typical =E2=80=9Cgarden gate=E2=80= =9D fashion=20 > with a horizontal main beam with rolling pivot and a suspension wire to=20 > the pivot bearing. > 2) At the point of the rolling pivot, the wire does not bend. I.e., the=20 > wire/pivot may be considered rigid in that area. This constraint will=20 > hold true if the wire rigidity is greater than the torque required to=20 > roll the pivot. Something I believe is a reasonable constraint/assumption. Hi Charles, Can you define the systems that you are considering more clearly,=20 please? I get a confused word picture in my mind. There are two types of crossed flexure suspension. In one type two=20 flat strips / straight wires are clamped at right angles - the classic cross= ed=20 foil suspension. As they flex, the suspension point moves to one side along=20= an=20 ellipse about the fixed member. In the other sort, you have figure of 8 foil / wire loops rolling on=20 cylinders and the flexure point moves in a circle around the fixed pivot. Remember that the fixed clamp / vertical support rod is nearer to the= =20 mass and the moving clamp / rod on the arm is on the far side of the support= =20 rod.=20 However, in both systems as the mass moves to one side, the plane=20 containing the centre of mass, the top suspension and the bottom flexure mak= es an=20 increasing angle to the vertical and hence, it is stable. =20 We need to consider deflections of less then 5 degrees. I can imagine amateur constructors 'getting into trouble' with=20 inadequately designed levelling systems. I provide spherical ends to the lev= elling=20 screws, either by fitting a SS dome nut or by gluing a SS bearing into the e= nd=20 of the bolt (preferable). There is inevitably some side to side 'slop' in sc= rew=20 threads. I provide a wavy spring washer and a locknut on the top side of the= =20 frame to keep the levelling screws in fairly high tension at all times. The=20 levelling screw and the fixed thread should both be made of the same metal t= o=20 mimise expansion effects. You definitely do need a smooth hard flat surface=20= on=20 the ground for the spherical ends to rest on. I use 2" - 3" square x 1/8" th= ick=20 SS plates. =20 Regards, Chris Chapman =20 In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes:

Discussion:
Assume:
1) That the Lehman is constructed in a typical =E2=80=9Cgarden gate=E2=80= =9D fashion
with a horizontal main beam with rolling pivot and a suspension wire to
the pivot bearing.
2) At the point of the rolling pivot, the wire does not bend. I.e., the
wire/pivot may be considered rigid in that area. This constraint will
hold true if the wire rigidity is greater than the torque required to
roll the pivot. Something I believe is a reasonable constraint/assumption.


Hi Charles,

       Can you define the systems that you are= considering more clearly, please?

       I get a confused word picture in my min= d.

       There are two types of crossed flexure=20= suspension. In one type two flat strips / straight wires are clamped at righ= t angles - the classic crossed foil suspension. As they flex, the suspension= point moves to one side along an ellipse about the fixed member.
       In the other sort, you have figure of 8= foil / wire loops rolling on cylinders and the flexure point moves in a cir= cle around the fixed pivot.
       Remember that the fixed clamp / vertica= l support rod is nearer to the mass and the moving clamp / rod on the arm is= on the far side of the support rod.
       However, in both systems as the mass mo= ves to one side, the plane containing the centre of mass, the top suspension= and the bottom flexure makes an increasing angle to the vertical and hence,= it is stable. 
       We need to consider deflections of less= then 5 degrees.

       I can imagine amateur constructors 'get= ting into trouble' with inadequately designed levelling systems. I provide s= pherical ends to the levelling screws, either by fitting a SS dome nut or by= gluing a SS bearing into the end of the bolt (preferable). There is inevita= bly some side to side 'slop' in screw threads. I provide a wavy spring washe= r and a locknut on the top side of the frame to keep the levelling screws in= fairly high tension at all times. The levelling screw and the fixed thread=20= should both be made of the same metal to mimise expansion effects. You defin= itely do need a smooth hard flat surface on the ground for the spherical end= s to rest on. I use 2" - 3" square x 1/8" thick SS plates.
 
       Regards,

       Chris Chapman

Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: Charles Patton charles.r.patton@........ Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:07:54 -0700 ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > In a message dated 2008/07/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes: > >> Discussion: >> Assume: >> 1) That the Lehman is constructed in a typical “garden gate†fashion >> with a horizontal main beam with rolling pivot and a suspension wire to >> the pivot bearing. >> 2) At the point of the rolling pivot, the wire does not bend. I.e., the >> wire/pivot may be considered rigid in that area. This constraint will >> hold true if the wire rigidity is greater than the torque required to >> roll the pivot. Something I believe is a reasonable constraint/assumption. > > > > Hi Charles, > > Can you define the systems that you are considering more clearly, > please? > > I get a confused word picture in my mind. > > There are two types of crossed flexure suspension. In one type > two flat strips / straight wires are clamped at right angles - the > classic crossed foil suspension. As they flex, the suspension point > moves to one side along an ellipse about the fixed member. > In the other sort, you have figure of 8 foil / wire loops rolling > on cylinders and the flexure point moves in a circle around the fixed pivot. > Remember that the fixed clamp / vertical support rod is nearer to > the mass and the moving clamp / rod on the arm is on the far side of the > support rod. > However, in both systems as the mass moves to one side, the plane > containing the centre of mass, the top suspension and the bottom flexure > makes an increasing angle to the vertical and hence, it is stable. > We need to consider deflections of less then 5 degrees. > > I can imagine amateur constructors 'getting into trouble' with > inadequately designed levelling systems. I provide spherical ends to the > levelling screws, either by fitting a SS dome nut or by gluing a SS > bearing into the end of the bolt (preferable). There is inevitably some > side to side 'slop' in screw threads. I provide a wavy spring washer and > a locknut on the top side of the frame to keep the levelling screws in > fairly high tension at all times. The levelling screw and the fixed > thread should both be made of the same metal to mimise expansion > effects. You definitely do need a smooth hard flat surface on the ground > for the spherical ends to rest on. I use 2" - 3" square x 1/8" thick SS > plates. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman Chris, Admittedly my description is brief. I left unsaid that everything is perfectly rigid and properly set up. The pivot types I'm really interested in are ones used on a a Lehman geometry where rolling pivot types are used, such as a carbide ball in the end of the beam rolling on a hard plate and the same for the suspension wire/beam to the upper pivot point on the upright. Not the crossed flexure (Bendix bearings, or single flexure -- although I asked the question does this apply to them, too?) What I'm trying to think about is not spurious effects such as compression (Rockwell hardness), and lack of sufficient rigidity in the structure, but rather the effect that a rolling geometry inherently has. If one thinks about what happens when a properly adjusted Lehman gate swings, the plumb bob is taking a flatter and flatter trajectory as the period is increased. As I recall, a 10 second period pendulum will lift about 1/2 a thousandth inch per 1 inch swing. So if the geometry causes the bob to drop 1/2 a thousandth per inch of swing then it cancels what other wise would be a stable adjustment. The problem is that a 20 second pendulum would be more like 0.0001"/inch. Even a very small ball-point pen ball is perhaps 0.04" in dia --so 1/2 diameter is 200 times 0.0001". So a very small swing starts to have an accelerating change of length leading to a total flatting of the bob trajectory and then "flopping" of the pendulum bob. This swing may come from slight floor tilt and what might otherwise be stable is not because the geometry leads to unstability. The only saving grace I see is that the twist that also takes place is in the direction of increasing stability (lifting the bob) but in my mind it is secondary in effect to the primary drop due to the effective pivot point change leading to an apparent pivot point/beam/bob length change. Now to discuss the flat flexure problem. When rolling points are used, the lower point is in compression on a plate and the upper is in compression on the opposite side such that the both lead to dropping the bob as it swings. Now if flat foil flexures are used, the upper flexure is on the bob side and initially bends at some point, but as the bob moves sideways, doesn't the flexure point move towards the upright? If so the upper supension is effectively getting longer, lowering the bob during a swing, again unstable. The lower beam flexure is in tension on the back (further away from the bob) side of the upright. This time it's not clear to me which way the bend point moves, if at all, however my suspicion is that the bend point moves toward the upright which also leads to an effective shortening of the bottom beam, again the unstable lowering of the bob. Much of this came about as I conjectured why so many anecdotal stories about the difficulty of adjusting Lehmans in the long period realm. So the thought experiment described above. Regards, Chas. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: My WQFilter utility for PSN files From: "Robert McClure" bobmcclure90@......... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 21:58:06 -0400 I hope at least some of you will examine my recent postings of the Okhotsk event: 080705.022000.rem.psn * M7.7 8618km from Locust Valley, NY: SEA OF OKHOTSK 080705.022000.remz.psn * M7.7 8618km from Locust Valley, NY [WQFiltered and raw]: SEA OF OKHOTSK 080705.022100.rempal.psn * M7.7 ch1 Locust Valley, NY, ch2 Palisades, NY]: SEA OF OKHOTSK The first event file is in my usual style, in which I use WQFilter.exe to make my short-period sensors work like long-period sensors. The second event file shows the Z sensor waveform after filtering on top, and the raw data as the bottom trace. The third file is my processed Z data as the top trace, and the data from nearby network station PAL on the bottom. You can see that my data processing results in a waveform closely resembling that of a professional network sensor, the STS-2. The proper use of WQFilter can improve the performance of any amateur sensor. It can make the natural period shorter or longer as desired, and it can correct for under or over damping. All you need to know is the natural period and damping of your sensor. WQFilter can be downloaded from http://bobmcclure90.googlepages.com/winsac It operates on PSN Type 4 files. Regards, Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Okhotsk Mw7.5 earthquake From: "Robert McClure" bobmcclure90@......... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:30:35 -0400 Hi Steinar, I made a WinQuake event file out of your SAC file data, and posted it as 080705.022000.oslonx.psn I enhanced it a little bit using WQFilter on it. Bob You wrote: It totally swamped my station in Oslo 6917 km away, even the P wave: http://voksenlia.net/nytt/2008/seismo-20080705.jpg I've put a SAC file from 02:12 to 04:12 on: http://voksenlia.net/nytt/2008/seismo-20080705.sac Regards, Steinar Midtskogen http://voksenlia.net __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: Brett Nordgren Brett3nt@............. Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 22:28:37 -0400 Charles, Just a quick comment relating to my studies of the geometry of the 'figure-8' pivot, which may also apply to the rolling geometry (or not). What I found was that, although the axis of rotation moved somewhat as the hinge rotated, a point on the beam actually described quite an accurate circular arc. In my extreme example, using 1" dia rollers and a 5" boom, the center of rotation moved about 0.009" per degree of rotation, however, over +/- 5 degrees, the end of the beam traced out a circle, accurate to +/- 0.00043" or 43 microinches per degree. After looking at it for awhile it became apparent that, as the center of rotation changed, the instantantaneous radius of curvature also changed to largely compensate, resulting in the nearly circular locus. When I get a free moment, I'll see if a similar analysis gives similar results for your rolling pivot. Regards, Brett At 04:07 PM 7/5/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Chris, >Admittedly my description is brief. I left unsaid that everything is >perfectly rigid and properly set up. The pivot types I'm really >interested in are ones used on a a Lehman geometry where rolling pivot >types are used, such as a carbide ball in the end of the beam rolling on a >hard plate and the same for the suspension wire/beam to the upper pivot >point on the upright. Not the crossed flexure (Bendix bearings, or single >flexure -- although I asked the question does this apply to them, >too?) What I'm trying to think about is not spurious effects such as >compression (Rockwell hardness), and lack of sufficient rigidity in the >structure, but rather the effect that a rolling geometry inherently >has. If one thinks about what happens when a properly adjusted Lehman >gate swings, the plumb bob is taking a flatter and flatter trajectory as >the period is increased. As I recall, a 10 second period pendulum will >lift about 1/2 a thousandth inch per 1 inch swing. So if the geometry >causes the bob to drop 1/2 a thousandth per inch of swing then it cancels >what other wise would be a stable adjustment. The problem is that a 20 >second pendulum would be more like 0.0001"/inch. Even a very small >ball-point pen ball is perhaps 0.04" in dia --so 1/2 diameter is 200 times >0.0001". So a very small swing starts to have an accelerating change of >length leading to a total flatting of the bob trajectory and then >"flopping" of the pendulum bob. This swing may come from slight floor >tilt and what might otherwise be stable is not because the geometry leads >to unstability. The only saving grace I see is that the twist that also >takes place is in the direction of increasing stability (lifting the bob) >but in my mind it is secondary in effect to the primary drop due to the >effective pivot point change leading to an apparent pivot point/beam/bob >length change. > >Now to discuss the flat flexure problem. When rolling points are used, the >lower point is in compression on a plate and the upper is in compression >on the opposite side such that the both lead to dropping the bob as it >swings. Now if flat foil flexures are used, the upper flexure is on the >bob side and initially bends at some point, but as the bob moves sideways, >doesn't the flexure point move towards the upright? If so the upper >supension is effectively getting longer, lowering the bob during a swing, >again unstable. The lower beam flexure is in tension on the back (further >away from the bob) side of the upright. This time it's not clear to me >which way the bend point moves, if at all, however my suspicion is that >the bend point moves toward the upright which also leads to an effective >shortening of the bottom beam, again the unstable lowering of the bob. > >Much of this came about as I conjectured why so many anecdotal stories >about the difficulty of adjusting Lehmans in the long period realm. So >the thought experiment described above. >Regards, >Chas. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: My WQFilter utility for PSN files<<< WHOOPIE>>>> From: "Jim ODonnell" geophysics@.......... Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 03:10:11 GMT Hi Bob- Well I have been doing geophysics for almost 50 years now & seldom do yo= u get something for nothing- = But indeed your filter does do that- I have been playing with it for a= lmost a year now & it takes a $100 Mark Products (MP) geophone L15B (4.5= Hz) & makes it look like a ~$2,000 MP L4 (1Hz) sensor. If one integrates your posted Velocity grams- It is even more impressive= ! Integration is a LP filter so it is easier to compare the 2 records a= nd you now see the ground motion (displacement). Which is another PLUS = for Larry=92s WinQuake? You can see the site effects from that Mud flat you live on in Long Island compared to the PAL site. The Pal STS is probably in a = nice seismic vault on hard rock. BTW- Tell us about your sensor (Z) - it is not described in the record h= eadings. Thanks for a very useful algorithm/program- A Thing of Beauty! <<<<< Jim Jim O'Donnell = Geological/Geophysical Consultant GEOTECHNICAL APPLICATIONS 702.293.5664 geophysics@.......... 702.281.9081 cell jimo17@........ -- "Robert McClure" wrote: I hope at least some of you will examine my recent postings of the Okhotsk event: 080705.022000.rem.psn * M7.7 8618km from Locust Valley, NY: SEA OF OKHOT= SK 080705.022000.remz.psn * M7.7 8618km from Locust Valley, NY [WQFiltered and raw]: SEA OF OKHOTSK 080705.022100.rempal.psn * M7.7 ch1 Locust Valley, NY, ch2 Palisades, NY]: SEA OF OKHOTSK The first event file is in my usual style, in which I use WQFilter.exe to make my short-period sensors work like long-period sensors. The second event file shows the Z sensor waveform after filtering on top, and the raw data as the bottom trace. The third file is my processed Z data as the top trace, and the data from nearby network station PAL on the bottom. You can see that my data processing results in a waveform closely resembling that of a professional network sensor, the STS-2. The proper use of WQFilter can improve the performance of any amateur sensor. It can make the natural period shorter or longer as desired, and it can correct for under or over damping. All you need to know is the natural period and damping of your sensor. WQFilter can be downloaded from http://bobmcclure90.googlepages.com/winsac It operates on PSN Type 4 files. Regards, Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.

Hi Bob-
Well = I have been doing geophysics for almost 50 years now & seldom do you= get something for nothing-
But indeed your filter does do that- 
I have been playing with it = for  almost a year now & it takes a $100 Mark Products (MP) geo= phone L15B (4.5Hz) & makes it look like a ~$2,000 MP L4 (1Hz) sensor= ..

If one integrates your posted Velocity grams- It is even more i= mpressive!  Integration is= a LP filter so it is easier to compare the 2 records and you now see th= e ground motion (displacement
). 
Which is another PLUS for Larry=92s WinQuake?

You can see the site effects from that Mud flat= you live on in Long Island compared to the PAL site.  The Pal STS is probably in a nice seismic vault on hard rock.
BTW- Tell us about your sensor (Z) - it is not described in the record= headings.

Thanks for a very useful algorithm/program-  A Thing of Beauty!
<<<&= lt;< Jim
 




    =             =   Jim O'Donnell     
   =      Geological/Geophysical Consultant
 = ;          GEOTECHNICA= L APPLICATIONS
702.293.5664    geophysics@..........702.281.9081 cell   jimo17@........

-- "Robert McClur= e" <bobmcclure90@.........> wrote:
I hope at least some of you = will examine my recent postings of the
Okhotsk event:

080705.0= 22000.rem.psn * M7.7 8618km from Locust Valley, NY: SEA OF OKHOTSK
08= 0705.022000.remz.psn * M7.7 8618km from Locust Valley, NY
[WQFiltered= and raw]: SEA OF OKHOTSK
080705.022100.rempal.psn * M7.7 ch1 Locust = Valley, NY, ch2 Palisades,
NY]: SEA OF OKHOTSK

The first event= file is in my usual style, in which I use
WQFilter.exe to make my sh= ort-period sensors work like long-period
sensors.

 The se= cond event file shows the Z sensor waveform after filtering on
top, a= nd the raw data as the bottom trace.

 The third file is my p= rocessed Z data as the top trace, and the data
from nearby network st= ation PAL on the bottom. You can see that my
data processing results = in a waveform closely resembling that of a
professional network senso= r, the STS-2.

 The proper use of WQFilter can improve the pe= rformance of any
amateur sensor. It can make the natural period short= er or longer as
desired, and it can correct for under or over damping= .. All you need to
know is the natural period and damping of your sens= or.

 WQFilter can be downloaded from

 http://bob= mcclure90.googlepages.com/winsac

 It operates on PSN Type 4 = files.

Regards,

Bob
___________________________________= _______________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-= L)

To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://ww= w.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.
Subject: Re: My WQFilter utility for PSN files<<< WHOOPIE>>>> From: "Robert McClure" bobmcclure90@......... Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 23:44:24 -0400 Hi Jim, Thanks for your kind words. My sensors are described on my web pages at http://bobmcclure90.googlepages.com/sitemap ---Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: Charles Patton charles.r.patton@........ Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 22:49:31 -0700 Brett, It would seem me, too, that the figure-8 pivot is very similar to a ball on a plate except that the figure-8 pivot would have about twice the effect due to the point of contact moving along a second curved surface adding to the effective pivot point movement. One quick observation -- you say, "...traced out a circle, accurate to +/- 0.00043" or 43 microinches per degree." But 0.00043" is 430 microinches, not 43 microinches and in my brief conjecture, 100 microinches is enough to lead to failure of the swing trajectory in a 20 second period Lehman. Regards, Chas. Brett Nordgren wrote: > Charles, > > Just a quick comment relating to my studies of the geometry of the > 'figure-8' pivot, which may also apply to the rolling geometry (or > not). What I found was that, although the axis of rotation moved > somewhat as the hinge rotated, a point on the beam actually described > quite an accurate circular arc. In my extreme example, using 1" dia > rollers and a 5" boom, the center of rotation moved about 0.009" per > degree of rotation, however, over +/- 5 degrees, the end of the beam > traced out a circle, accurate to +/- 0.00043" or 43 microinches per degree. > > After looking at it for awhile it became apparent that, as the center of > rotation changed, the instantantaneous radius of curvature also changed > to largely compensate, resulting in the nearly circular locus. When I > get a free moment, I'll see if a similar analysis gives similar results > for your rolling pivot. > > Regards, > Brett > > At 04:07 PM 7/5/2008 -0700, you wrote: > >> Chris, >> Admittedly my description is brief. I left unsaid that everything is >> perfectly rigid and properly set up. The pivot types I'm really >> interested in are ones used on a a Lehman geometry where rolling pivot >> types are used, such as a carbide ball in the end of the beam rolling >> on a hard plate and the same for the suspension wire/beam to the upper >> pivot point on the upright. Not the crossed flexure (Bendix bearings, >> or single flexure -- although I asked the question does this apply to >> them, too?) What I'm trying to think about is not spurious effects >> such as compression (Rockwell hardness), and lack of sufficient >> rigidity in the structure, but rather the effect that a rolling >> geometry inherently has. If one thinks about what happens when a >> properly adjusted Lehman gate swings, the plumb bob is taking a >> flatter and flatter trajectory as the period is increased. As I >> recall, a 10 second period pendulum will lift about 1/2 a thousandth >> inch per 1 inch swing. So if the geometry causes the bob to drop 1/2 >> a thousandth per inch of swing then it cancels what other wise would >> be a stable adjustment. The problem is that a 20 second pendulum >> would be more like 0.0001"/inch. Even a very small ball-point pen >> ball is perhaps 0.04" in dia --so 1/2 diameter is 200 times 0.0001". >> So a very small swing starts to have an accelerating change of length >> leading to a total flatting of the bob trajectory and then "flopping" >> of the pendulum bob. This swing may come from slight floor tilt and >> what might otherwise be stable is not because the geometry leads to >> unstability. The only saving grace I see is that the twist that also >> takes place is in the direction of increasing stability (lifting the >> bob) but in my mind it is secondary in effect to the primary drop due >> to the effective pivot point change leading to an apparent pivot >> point/beam/bob length change. >> >> Now to discuss the flat flexure problem. When rolling points are used, >> the lower point is in compression on a plate and the upper is in >> compression on the opposite side such that the both lead to dropping >> the bob as it swings. Now if flat foil flexures are used, the upper >> flexure is on the bob side and initially bends at some point, but as >> the bob moves sideways, doesn't the flexure point move towards the >> upright? If so the upper supension is effectively getting longer, >> lowering the bob during a swing, again unstable. The lower beam >> flexure is in tension on the back (further away from the bob) side of >> the upright. This time it's not clear to me which way the bend point >> moves, if at all, however my suspicion is that the bend point moves >> toward the upright which also leads to an effective shortening of the >> bottom beam, again the unstable lowering of the bob. >> >> Much of this came about as I conjectured why so many anecdotal stories >> about the difficulty of adjusting Lehmans in the long period realm. >> So the thought experiment described above. >> Regards, >> Chas. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: Brett Nordgren Brett3nt@............. Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 06:56:24 -0400 Charles, It was +/- 0.00043" over 10 degrees. A quick and dirty attempt to plot out the locus for your rolling ball case using a CAD program gives some interesting results. They suggest that a rolling pivot may be generating a perfectly circular locus for the end (or any other point) of the beam. I seem to remember seeing a proof of that somewhere, though I'm not sure. The way the locus radius varies with the length of the beam is somewhat interesting. Obviously for a very long beam the radius becomes large, but if you choose a point on the beam close to the center of the pivot ball, the radius also becomes large. So for any selected pivot ball diameter, there should be a beam length which has a minimum radius for its locus.....interesting. I tried a 1"dia ball with a 5" long beam, and over a motion of +/- 5 degrees, the end traced a circle of radius of 6.0494935" +/- 0.0000001" which was the limit of the accuracy of my CAD program. That suggests that an analytical approach is worth looking into, to prove that it is indeed a perfect circle (if it is) and to come up with an expression to locate the center. In the extreme example above, I think if you located the plate approximately 0.5494935" forward from a point directly under the upper wire attachment you would obtain the circular motion you were looking for. I am now starting to think that it's not going to be a geometrically perfect circle. If you try a 1/2" long beam with a 1" dia ball, you get a cycloid. More later, Brett At 10:49 PM 7/5/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Brett, >It would seem me, too, that the figure-8 pivot is very similar to a ball >on a plate except that the figure-8 pivot would have about twice the >effect due to the point of contact moving along a second curved >surface adding to the effective pivot point movement. One quick >observation -- you say, "...traced out a circle, accurate to +/- 0.00043" >or 43 microinches per degree." But 0.00043" is 430 microinches, not 43 microinches and in my brief conjecture, 100 microinches is enough to lead to failure of the swing trajectory in a 20 second period Lehman. Regards, Chas. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: Charles Patton charles.r.patton@........ Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:48:57 -0700 Brett, Thanks for the trigger word, “cycloid.” I had been thinking it too, but somehow your writing it got me thinking about a book I had stashed away, “Technology Mathematics Handbook” by Jan J. Tuma. Just the thing for a discussion like this. Our problem can be defined as class of cycloids called “prolate cycloids.” Give a circle with center C of radius R rolling on a contact line, and a Point P of K*R length (C to P), and A equals angle of CP to the normal to the contact line, then the graph of P is: X = R(A – KsinA) Y = R(1 – KcosA) This is a cycloid with loops on the end where the cusps would be if a pure cycloid were graphed. (For a pure cycloid just set K=1) A point moving around a point (i.e. what we really want) is: X = RsinA Y = RcosA What immediately comes out of this is that just simple observation of the prolate cycloid curve is that the upper pivot and lower pivot are tracing different curves because they are effectively 180 degrees out of phase in the equation so right away balance has to be changing. Now which way? I think I’ll post this and continue with sims in Excel a bit later. But just some food for thought. Also an important consideration is that these will yield curves in the plane of the rotation, but they have to be combined in a perpendicular plane to fully establish the final effect on the bob trajectory. I.e., the bob is a vertex on a triangle (and one not necessarily a right triangle) formed by the upright, beam and suspension wire. In fact, the thought that the bob support does not have to be constrained to a right triangle may provide the way out of the possible geometry problem. More food for thought. Regards, Chas. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:52:14 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/06, charles.r.patton@........ writes: > Chris, > Admittedly my description is brief. I left unsaid that everything is > perfectly rigid and properly set up. The pivot types I'm really interested in are > ones used on a Lehman geometry where rolling pivot types are used, such as a > carbide ball in the end of the beam rolling on a hard plate and the same for > the suspension wire / beam to the upper pivot point on the upright. Hi Charles, OK But you will likely be in trouble if you use the ball on the end of the arm. Put the ball on the vertical upright and the plate on the end of the arm. The centre of curvature of the ball defines the swing angle and you want this to be fixed --> NOT dependant on the precision placement of the ball / any slip or creep movement of the suspension during operation. The position of the plate is not really critical. I use this suspension type and I can get a 30 seconds period quite OK. I use a 1/2" SS ball rolling on a section of 'skin graft' polished scalpel blade 16 thou thick. The cost is less than 50c !! The arm rotates around the centre of the ball. The SEP Lehman uses crossed tungsten carbide rollers for both suspensions with the bottom vertical roller on the support column and the cross roller on the arm. I have been able to set one up for 30 seconds without any problems. My comments relate to these system types. I can confirm from practical experience that BOTH these systems work well and are stable at long periods. Remember that crossed foil suspension systems do work fine in commercial seismometers! Not the crossed flexure (Bendix bearings, > or single flexure -- although I > asked the question does this apply to them, too?) In spades! What I'm trying to think about is not spurious effects such as compression > (Rockwell hardness), and lack of sufficient rigidity in the structure, but > rather the effect that a rolling geometry inherently has. If one thinks > about what happens when a properly adjusted Lehman gate swings, the plumb bob is > taking a flatter and flatter trajectory as the period is increased. As I > recall, a 10 second period pendulum will lift about 1/2 a thousandth inch per 1 > inch swing. So if the geometry > causes the bob to drop 1/2 a thousandth per inch of swing then it cancels > what other wise would be a stable adjustment. The problem is that a 20 second > pendulum would be more like 0.0001"/inch. Even a very small ball-point pen > ball is perhaps 0.04" in dia --so 1/2 diameter is 200 times 0.0001". You can only use 1 mm balls (eg ball point pens -- BIC use Carbide balls) if you have a very light load, only an ounce or so. Otherwise either the ball or the flat will fail fairly rapidly, if not immediately, in compression. You get a ring fracture about the contact point, or the ball digs a dimple into the counterface. In practice, you set up a pendulum for the desired period, by slowly reducing the angle that the suspension makes with the vertical. If there is a small LINEAR correction to the theoretical swing angle, this should compensate for it. So a very small swing starts to have an accelerating > change of length > leading to a total flatting of the bob trajectory and then "flopping" of the > pendulum bob. This swing may come from slight floor tilt and what might otherwise > be stable is not because the geometry leads to instability. The only saving > grace I see is that the > twist that also takes place is in the direction of increasing stability > (lifting the bob) but in my mind it is secondary in effect to the primary drop > due to the effective pivot point change leading to an apparent pivot point / > beam / bob length change. I have only observed this when the tilt axis has been lifted above the neutral point. I don't understand why you consider the mass to be reducing in height as the arm rotates. When the ball is mounted on the end of the ARM, the contact point moves proportionately to the right as the mass swings to the right, which should lift the mass slightly? However, this depends on the SQUARE of the deflection angle d, from the 1 - d^2/2 approximation for the cosine term, so it could cause problems. For a 56 cm beam at 10 seconds, the axis tilt is about 1.3 degrees. This gives about the 1/2 thou rise per 1" bob deflection as you stated. With the ball on the vertical column, the length of the arm also increases by a very tiny amount as the bob swings to one side. This INCREASES the stability slightly, rather than DECREASING it. > Now to discuss the flat flexure problem. When rolling points are used, the > lower point is in compression on a plate and the upper is in compression on > the opposite side such that the both lead to dropping the bob as it swings. This is REALLY NOT a great idea! Reverse the ball and plate mountings! Put both balls on the vertical column, both plates on the arm. Now if flat foil flexures are used, the upper flexure > is on the bob side > and initially bends at some point, but as the bob moves sideways, doesn't the > flexure point move towards the upright? Possibly. You have the load of the mass opposed by the bending of the foil. It also depends on whether the top and bottom flexures are both mounted vertically, or whether the top flexure is perpendicular to the support wire / diagonal rod. Both systems have been used. If so, the upper suspension is effectively getting longer, lowering the bob during a > swing, again unstable. The lower beam flexure is in tension on the back > (further away from the bob) side of the upright. This time it's not clear to me > which way the bend point moves, if at all, however my suspicion is that the > bend point moves toward the upright which also leads to an effective > shortening of the bottom beam, again the unstable lowering of the bob. If you have vertical crossed flexures top and bottom, as the mass swings to the right the bottom suspension point moves slightly to the left, but it also moves marginally toward the support column. The top suspension point moves slightly to the right, but it also moves marginally toward the support column. If the flexures are identical, the suspension movements toward the vertical column, while square law, should increase the stability. The change in the axis angle should be ~linear and hence compensated during the tilt / period setup procedure. If you used a very short vertical separation of the flexures, the angular cross change of the suspension could be unstable. > Much of this came about as I conjectured why so many anecdotal stories > about the difficulty of adjusting Lehmans in the long period realm. So the > thought experiment described above. My feeling is that problems getting stable long period Lehman suspensions are more likely related to the use of softer materials, like HT bolts, for the counterface. At the loads commonly used in Lehmans, dimples can form under the ball and give erratic results. (Try inserting a strip of Al ---> the arm will ~stop responding to all but the strongest signals!) The use of a real knife blade will NOT allow you to get long stable periods. You are applying a force to the edge close to or in excess of it's load bearing capacity. The edge will either roll over or shatter depending on the metal temper, or dig a wedge into the counterface - or all three! > What immediately comes out of this is that just simple observation of > the prolate cycloid curve is that the upper pivot and lower pivot are > tracing different curves because they are effectively 180 degrees out of > phase in the equation so right away balance has to be changing. Now > which way? Remember that we are dealing with very small angles where Sin(theta) ---> theta and cos theta ~= 1. It is easy to get mislead by considering large angles. Interesting discussion! I hope that I have got the mechanical relationships correct this time! Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/06, charles.r.patton@........ writes:

Chris,
Admittedly my description is brief.  I left unsaid that everything is p= erfectly rigid and properly set up.  The pivot types I'm really interes= ted in are ones used on a Lehman geometry where rolling pivot types are used= , such as a carbide ball in the end of the beam rolling on a hard plate and=20= the same for the suspension wire / beam to the upper pivot point on the upri= ght. 


Hi Charles,

       OK

       But you will likely be in trouble if yo= u use the ball on the end of the arm. Put the ball on the vertical upright a= nd the plate on the end of the arm. The centre of curvature of the ball defi= nes the swing angle and you want this to be fixed --> NOT dependant on th= e precision placement of the ball / any slip or creep movement of the suspen= sion during operation. The position of the plate is not really critical. I u= se this suspension type and I can get a 30 seconds period quite OK. I use a=20= 1/2" SS ball rolling on a section of 'skin graft' polished scalpel blade 16=20= thou thick. The cost is less than 50c !! The arm rotates around the centre o= f the ball.

       The SEP Lehman uses crossed tungsten ca= rbide rollers for both suspensions with the bottom vertical roller on the su= pport column and the cross roller on the arm. I have been able to set one up= for 30 seconds without any problems.

       My comments relate to these system type= s.

       I can confirm from practical experience= that BOTH these systems work well and are stable at long periods.

       Remember that crossed foil suspension s= ystems do work fine in commercial seismometers!

Not the crossed flexure (Bendix bearings,
or single flexure -- although I asked the question does this appl= y to them, too?) 


       In spades!

What I'm trying to think about is not spurious effects such as compression <= BR>
(Rockwell hardness), and lack o= f sufficient rigidity in the structure, but rather the effect that a rolling= geometry inherently has.  If one thinks about what happens when a prop= erly adjusted Lehman gate swings, the plumb bob is taking a flatter and flat= ter trajectory as the period is increased.  As I recall, a 10 second pe= riod pendulum will lift about 1/2 a thousandth inch per 1 inch swing. =20= So if the geometry
causes the bob to drop 1/2 a thousandth per inch of swing then it cancels wh= at other wise would be a stable adjustment.  The problem is that a 20 s= econd pendulum would be more like 0.0001"/inch.  Even a very small ball= -point pen ball is perhaps 0.04" in dia --so 1/2 diameter is 200 times 0.000= 1". 


       You can only use 1 mm balls (eg ball po= int pens -- BIC use Carbide balls) if you have a very light load, only an ou= nce or so. Otherwise either the ball or the flat will fail fairly rapidly, i= f not immediately, in compression. You get a ring fracture about the contact= point, or the ball digs a dimple into the counterface.

       In practice, you set up a pendulum for=20= the desired period, by slowly reducing the angle that the suspension makes w= ith the vertical. If there is a small LINEAR correction to the theoretical s= wing angle, this should compensate for it.

So a very small swing starts to have an accelerating
change of length leading to a total flatting of the bo= b trajectory and then "flopping" of the pendulum bob.  This swing may c= ome from slight floor tilt and what might otherwise be stable is not because= the geometry leads to instability.  The only saving grace I see is tha= t the
twist that also takes place is in the direction of increasing stability (lif= ting the bob) but in my mind it is secondary in effect to the primary drop d= ue to the effective pivot point change leading to an apparent pivot point /=20= beam / bob length change.


       I have only observed this when the tilt= axis has been lifted above the neutral point.

       I don't understand why you consider the= mass to be reducing in height as the arm rotates. When the ball is mounted=20= on the end of the ARM, the contact point moves proportionately to the right=20= as the mass swings to the right, which should lift the mass slightly? Howeve= r, this depends on the SQUARE of the deflection angle d, from the 1 - d^2/2=20= approximation for the cosine term, so it could cause problems. 

       For a 56 cm beam at 10 seconds, the axi= s tilt is about 1.3 degrees. This gives about the 1/2 thou rise per 1" bob d= eflection as you stated.

       With the ball on the vertical column, t= he length of the arm also increases by a very tiny amount as the bob swings=20= to one side. This INCREASES the stability slightly, rather than DECREASING i= t.

Now to discuss the flat flexure= problem. When rolling points are used, the lower point is in compression on= a plate and the upper is in compression on the opposite side such that the=20= both lead to dropping the bob as it swings.


       This is REALLY NOT a great idea! = Reverse the ball and plate mountings! Put both balls on the vertical column= , both plates on the arm.
  
Now if flat foil flexures are used, the upper flexure
is on the bob side and initially bends at some point,= but as the bob moves sideways, doesn't the flexure point move towards the u= pright?


       Possibly. You have the load of the mas= s opposed by the bending of the foil. It also depends on whether the top and= bottom flexures are both mounted vertically, or whether the top flexure is=20= perpendicular to the support wire / diagonal rod. Both systems have been use= d.

       If so, the upper suspension is effectiv= ely getting longer, lowering the bob during a

swing, again unstable. The low= er beam flexure is in tension on the back (further away from the bob) side o= f the upright. This time it's not clear to me which way the bend point moves= , if at all, however my suspicion is that the bend point moves toward the up= right which also leads to an effective shortening of the bottom beam, again=20= the unstable lowering of the bob.


       If you have vertical crossed flexures=20= top and bottom, as the mass swings to the right the bottom suspension point=20= moves slightly to the left, but it also moves marginally toward the support=20= column. The top suspension point moves slightly to the right, but it also mo= ves marginally toward the support column. If the flexures are identical, the= suspension movements toward the vertical column, while square law, should i= ncrease the stability. The change in the axis angle should be ~linear and he= nce compensated during the tilt / period setup procedure. If you used a very= short vertical separation of the flexures, the angular cross change of the=20= suspension could be unstable.

Much of this came about as I co= njectured why so many anecdotal stories about the difficulty of adjusting Le= hmans in the long period realm. So the thought experiment described above.

       My feeling is that problems getting sta= ble long period Lehman suspensions are more likely related to the use of sof= ter materials, like HT bolts, for the counterface. At the loads commonly use= d in Lehmans, dimples can form under the ball and give erratic results. (Try= inserting a strip of Al ---> the arm will ~stop responding to all but th= e strongest signals!) The use of a real knife blade will NOT allow you to ge= t long stable periods. You are applying a force to the edge close to or in e= xcess of it's load bearing capacity. The edge will either roll over or shatt= er depending on the metal temper, or dig a wedge into the counterface - or a= ll three!

What immediately comes out of t= his is that just simple observation of
the prolate cycloid curve is that the upper pivot and lower pivot are
tracing different curves because they are effectively 180 degrees out of phase in the equation so right away balance has to be changing.  Now which way?


       Remember that we are dealing with very=20= small angles where Sin(theta) ---> theta and cos theta ~=3D 1. It is easy= to get mislead by considering large angles.

       Interesting discussion! I hope that I h= ave got the mechanical relationships correct this time!

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 12:56:38 -0700 Hi Pete, I found that not all GPS receivers with 1PPS signal are created equally. Some only output a short 1 microsecond pulse at the top of the second. Since I'm polling the 1PPS signal at 1 millisecond rate a short pulse will not work. The other thing I found with some receivers is the NMEA time message and the 1PPS signal are not locked together so it's hard to know what time the pulse happened at. The best receiver for timing was the Motorola ONCORE series, but they don't make them anymore. The Garmin GPS 18 LVC sensor (http://www.seismicnet.com/gps/gps18.html) is nice because of it's size, about the size of a hockey puck. The device contains both an antenna and receiver and can be bought online for under $80.00. Regards, Larry Cochrane Webtronics Pete Rowe wrote: > Hi Larry > I have several types of GPS boards, all of which have 1 pps outputs. > What is special about the Garmin and Oncore? > Pete > > --- On Fri, 7/4/08, Larry Cochrane wrote: > >> From: Larry Cochrane >> Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR >> To: psn-l@.............. >> Date: Friday, July 4, 2008, 4:02 PM >> Chris and Tom, >> >> A/D data is time stamped at the digitizer board >> (http://www.seismicnet.com/serialatod.html), when a GPS >> receiver is connected to it. >> WinSDR does not use the computer's time when GPS time >> is used as a reference. If >> everything is working correctly the accuracy should be >> under +-4 milliseconds, will >> within one sample time at 100 samples per second. The GPS >> receiver connected to the >> board must have a 1 pulse per second (PPS) signal, that is >> why the board only >> supports the Garmin GPS 16/18 sensor and the now obsolete >> Motorola ONCORE receiver. >> >> The firmware on the board maintains an accumulator, >> incremented by a 1 millisecond >> interrupt, that contains the time of day (UTC time) down to >> the millisecond. This 1 >> ms interrupt also monitors the 1 PPS GPS signal. At the top >> of the second the >> accumulator time is saved and sent to the host computer >> (running WinSDR) along with >> the ADC data. It's up to the host computer to adjust >> the ADC time accumulator, by >> sending commands to the board, to stay within a few >> milliseconds of UTC time. The >> time of day from the GPS NMEA messages is also parsed and >> sent to the host computer >> so it knows what second the pulse happened at. >> >> Tom, >> >> You should not be trying to use earthquakes to check your >> station timing! There are >> just too many variables. The accuracy of the travel time >> tables being one of them. If >> you suspect that your timing is not correct you should >> inject a signal at a known >> time into the A/D board and viewing the results in >> WinQuake. One way of doing this is >> to disturb the sensor at the top of the minute by listening >> to one of the WWV >> stations and jumping next to the sensor right at the top of >> the minute mark. Another >> way would be to connect a 1.5 volt battery to the input of >> the A/D channel, again >> right at the top of the minute mark. With a little practice >> you should be able able >> to get you test pulse to within +-100 ms of UTC time. While >> a test like this will not >> give you millisecond accuracy it should be good enough to >> make sure you are within +- >> 1/2 second of UTC time. >> >> Regards, >> Larry Cochrane >> Redwood City, PSN >> >> ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: >> > I am not sure how WinSDR actually does the >> timing, even when corrected >> > by GPS. The display program will presumably use the >> software clock on your >> > computer. Have you asked Larry? The software clocks >> fitted to PC computers are >> > often crap. They can loose or gain 10s of minutes per >> day. >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more >> information. > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: My WQFilter utility for PSN files From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Hi Bob I've goofed around ( That's what I do when I don't know what I'm doing) with your very nice filter program. It seems that in your examples the p and s waves get more distinct as you filter the raw data. I have a 3 second period horizontal which produced nice distinct p and s waves for the Okhotsk event. It seems that any combination of periods and filtering either doesn't change the plot much or makes it worse. I start out with 2x heliplot gain and have to reduce it to .01x to keep the plot on scale after applying filtering parameters. I'm entering 3 sec for my period, 0.7 for damping, and 10 seconds for the period extension. Do you have some suggested settings to get me started? Thanks, Pete --- On Sat, 7/5/08, Robert McClure wrote: > From: Robert McClure > Subject: My WQFilter utility for PSN files > To: psn-l@.............. > Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 6:58 PM > I hope at least some of you will examine my recent postings > of the > Okhotsk event: > > 080705.022000.rem.psn * M7.7 8618km from Locust Valley, NY: > SEA OF OKHOTSK > 080705.022000.remz.psn * M7.7 8618km from Locust Valley, NY > [WQFiltered and raw]: SEA OF OKHOTSK > 080705.022100.rempal.psn * M7.7 ch1 Locust Valley, NY, ch2 > Palisades, > NY]: SEA OF OKHOTSK > > The first event file is in my usual style, in which I use > WQFilter.exe to make my short-period sensors work like > long-period > sensors. > > The second event file shows the Z sensor waveform after > filtering on > top, and the raw data as the bottom trace. > > The third file is my processed Z data as the top trace, > and the data > from nearby network station PAL on the bottom. You can see > that my > data processing results in a waveform closely resembling > that of a > professional network sensor, the STS-2. > > The proper use of WQFilter can improve the performance of > any > amateur sensor. It can make the natural period shorter or > longer as > desired, and it can correct for under or over damping. All > you need to > know is the natural period and damping of your sensor. > > WQFilter can be downloaded from > > http://bobmcclure90.googlepages.com/winsac > > It operates on PSN Type 4 files. > > Regards, > > Bob > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: Brett Nordgren Brett3nt@............. Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:54:24 -0400 Charles, I think you have it. Indeed the boom tip traces a prolate cycloid. The=20 game, I think, is to find a way of fitting the 'best' circular arc, as=20 defined by its center and radius, to the cycloid in the narrow region of a= =20 few (5?) degrees plus and minus from the 'vertical' position of the=20 extension line (boom). With trial and error I could get sub microinch=20 tracking, but haven't yet come up with a good automated error minimization= =20 approach. In general, with a small ball and long boom, that should be=20 fairly easy to do. Once you have located the center of the circular arc,=20 you can locate the plate surface to locate the rotation center where it=20 needs to be. I'm still not sure I am visualizing the exact geometry you are looking at,= =20 but it's clear you're on the right track. Regards, Brett At 10:48 AM 7/6/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Brett, >Thanks for the trigger word, =93cycloid.=94 I had been thinking it too,= but=20 >somehow your writing it got me thinking about a book I had stashed away,=20 >=93Technology Mathematics Handbook=94 by Jan J. Tuma. Just the thing for a= =20 >discussion like this. Our problem can be defined as class of cycloids=20 >called =93prolate cycloids.=94 > >Give a circle with center C of radius R rolling on a contact line, and a=20 >Point P of K*R length (C to P), and A equals angle of CP to the normal to= =20 >the contact line, then the graph of P is: >X =3D R(A =AD KsinA) Y =3D R(1 =AD KcosA) >This is a cycloid with loops on the end where the cusps would be if a pure= =20 >cycloid were graphed. (For a pure cycloid just set K=3D1) >A point moving around a point (i.e. what we really want) is: >X =3D RsinA Y =3D RcosA > >What immediately comes out of this is that just simple observation of the= =20 >prolate cycloid curve is that the upper pivot and lower pivot are tracing= =20 >different curves because they are effectively 180 degrees out of phase in= =20 >the equation so right away balance has to be changing. Now which way? > >I think I=92ll post this and continue with sims in Excel a bit later. But= =20 >just some food for thought. Also an important consideration is that these= =20 >will yield curves in the plane of the rotation, but they have to be=20 >combined in a perpendicular plane to fully establish the final effect on=20 >the bob trajectory. I.e., the bob is a vertex on a triangle (and one not= =20 >necessarily a right triangle) formed by the upright, beam and suspension= wire. > >In fact, the thought that the bob support does not have to be constrained= =20 >to a right triangle may provide the way out of the possible geometry=20 >problem. More food for thought. >Regards, >Chas. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: Charles Patton charles.r.patton@........ Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:02:39 -0700 Brett, Chris, Thanks to Chris for tossing the wrench in the works -- :-) -- I have now spent the day trying to resurrect trig math I haven’t done seriously for 35 years. I think I have the formula for Chris’s bottom pivot, but I’m still psyching out the upper pivot, so I haven’t started sims yet. What I think at this point is that as the gate swings the lower point trajectory tightens up (radius decreases) with swing while the upper pivot flattens out (radius increases) which I would assume leads to unstability – the bob going lower as it swings. But this seems to fly in the face of Chris’s success in long period Lehman. The answer may lie in the combination in that the gate is twisting as it swings so the vertical position of the bob would play an important part of the stability. There has to be some point that the beam twists about, and if the bob is mounted above or below this point the twist could compensate or increase the trajectory error of the bob. The morning is spoken for, so I’ll try to get back on the problem in the afternoon. Now I’ll take a big leap of faith and put forth the formulas I think describe the lower pivot. Assume a cylinder of radius R with a beam of length K having a flat face resting on the cylinder. Angle T is the angle of the contact point of cylinder/face (beam angle). The angle of a line thru the center C of the cylinder and plumb bob P is equal to angle T minus angle B. Line G = C to P. All angles are in radians. Then: B = T(R/K) G = (R+K)/cosB x & y are referenced from C x = G(sin(T-B)) y = G(cos(T-B)) If there’s interest, I can try to do a standard proof deriving the above. I didn’t get to the formulas above with a step-by-step written proof, so it very well could be flawed. Good for discussion though. Anyway, later. Chas. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:36:46 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/07, charles.r.patton@........ writes: > Thanks to Chris for tossing the wrench in the works -- :-) -- I have now=20 > spent the day trying to resurrect trig math I haven=E2=80=99t done serious= ly for=20 > 35 years. I think I have the formula for Chris=E2=80=99s bottom pivot, bu= t I=E2=80=99m=20 > still psyching out the upper pivot, so I haven=E2=80=99t started sims yet.= What=20 > I think at this point is that as the gate swings the lower point=20 > trajectory tightens up (radius decreases) with swing while the upper=20 > pivot flattens out (radius increases) which I would assume leads to=20 > unstability =E2=80=93 the bob going lower as it swings. But this seems to= fly=20 > in the face of Chris=E2=80=99s success in long period Lehman.=20 Hi Charles, I am not entirely sure how you are analysing it, but you seem to be=20 having problems. Consider a sphere of radius R with the flat end of the arm of length=20= L=20 resting up against it. If the arm swings through a small angle d, the=20 distance between the centre of mass and the axis of rotation increases by ~=20= L x=20 (Rxd/L)^2 / 2. The separation must increase, since the contact point on the=20= face=20 has rolled sideways by Rxd from it's minimum central position. Whether the m= ass=20 rises or not depends on the behavoir of the top hinge. For a wire top=20 suspension the centre of curvature should be ~constant and the mass should t= end rise=20 slightly, but the wire clamp must have well defined edges. If it does not, t= he=20 top centre of rotation will move sightly away from the vertical, increasing=20 the stability, but decreasing the response linearity. =20 > Now I=E2=80=99ll take a big leap of faith and put forth the formulas I thi= nk=20 > describe the lower pivot. Assume a cylinder of radius R with a beam of=20 > length K having a flat face resting on the cylinder. Angle T is the=20 > angle of the contact point of cylinder/face (beam angle). The angle of=20 > a line thru the center C of the cylinder and plumb bob P is equal to=20 > angle T minus angle B. Line G =3D C to P. All angles are in radians. > Then: > B =3D T(R/K) > G =3D (R+K)/cosB > x & y are referenced from C > x =3D G(sin(T-B)) > y =3D G(cos(T-B)) >=20 > If there=E2=80=99s interest, I can try to do a standard proof deriving the= =20 > above. I didn=E2=80=99t get to the formulas above with a step-by-step wri= tten=20 > proof, so it very well could be flawed. Out of interest, what types of system were giving trouble in ''so man= y=20 anecdotal stories about the difficulty of adjusting Lehmans in the long=20 period realm''?? You seem to be implying that there must be some inherent pr= oblem,=20 when something inadequate in the construction seems the more likely=20 explanation.=20 I would expect to get mechanical problems with some of the amateur=20 designs previously described. Regards, Chris Chapman =20 In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/07, charles.r.patton@........ writes:

Thanks to Chris for tossing the= wrench in the works -- :-) -- I have now
spent the day trying to resurrect trig math I haven=E2=80=99t done seriously= for
35 years.  I think I have the formula for Chris=E2=80=99s bottom pivot,= but I=E2=80=99m
still psyching out the upper pivot, so I haven=E2=80=99t started sims yet.&n= bsp; What
I think at this point is that as the gate swings the lower point
trajectory tightens up (radius decreases) with swing while the upper
pivot flattens out (radius increases) which I would assume leads to
unstability =E2=80=93 the bob going lower as it swings.  But this seems= to fly
in the face of Chris=E2=80=99s success in long period Lehman.


Hi Charles,

       I am not entirely sure how you are anal= ysing it, but you seem to be having problems.

       Consider a sphere of radius R with the=20= flat end of the arm of length L resting up against it. If the arm swings thr= ough a small angle d, the distance between the centre of mass and the axis o= f rotation increases by ~ L x (Rxd/L)^2 / 2. The separation must increase, s= ince the contact point on the face has rolled sideways by Rxd from it's mini= mum central position. Whether the mass rises or not depends on the behavoir=20= of the top hinge. For a wire top suspension the centre of curvature should b= e ~constant and the mass should tend rise slightly, but the wire clamp must=20= have well defined edges. If it does not, the top centre of rotation will mov= e sightly away from the vertical, increasing the stability, but decreasing t= he response linearity.

Now I=E2=80=99ll take a big lea= p of faith and put forth the formulas I think
describe the lower pivot.  Assume a cylinder of radius R with a beam of=
length K having a flat face resting on the cylinder.  Angle T is the angle of the contact point of cylinder/face (beam angle).  The angle of=
a line thru the center C of the cylinder and plumb bob P is equal to
angle T minus angle B.  Line G =3D C to P.  All angles are in radi= ans.
Then:
B =3D T(R/K)
G =3D (R+K)/cosB
        x & y are referenced from C x =3D  G(sin(T-B))
y =3D  G(cos(T-B))

If there=E2=80=99s interest, I can try to do a standard proof deriving the <= BR> above.  I didn=E2=80=99t get to the formulas above with a step-by-step=20= written
proof, so it very well could be flawed.


       Out of interest, what types of system w= ere giving trouble in ''so many anecdotal stories about the difficulty of ad= justing Lehmans in the long period realm''?? You seem to be implying that th= ere must be some inherent problem, when something inadequate in the construc= tion seems the more likely explanation.
       I would expect to get mechanical proble= ms with some of the amateur designs previously described.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Earthquake strength From: Steinar Midtskogen steinar@............. Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:08:06 +0200 For my web page I automatically retreave current earthquake data from USGS and NORSAR in order to make a table of earthquakes which my instrument should be able to detect. I then calculate arrival times for the P and S waves and add that to my plot as well. Quakes that satisfy the equation sqrt(10)^(m+2.5) > d, where m is the magnitude and d is the distance in km, are currently in my list, and that limit seems roughly to correspond to what I can detect. That is, I'm assuming that the strength of an earthquake drops by the square of the distance. Is that a valid assumptation for earthquakes? -- Steinar Midtskogen http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 07/07/2008 00:01:28 From: "Randy" rpratt@............. Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 07:41:28 -0500 Charles, I did some work on this question a couple of years back and got the same answers Chris is proposing that as the angle increases the restoring force increases. Consider the pivot point on a rolling contact will move laterally on the boom end. The horizontal pressure of the mass support geometry will now fall on an extended line making a right triangle with the boom axis and which is longer than the axis and thus the axis is the stable position with no moment about the cg. Use the mass as the origin of your support force system and sum moments and forces since a stable mass is the premise of the operation. My experience is that support flexure or lose threads in supporting legs are the barriers to settup stability and the floor of the basement is the controlling factor over days or weeks. I am also finding that with the stronger magnets I have obtained that I am fighting magnetic effects not seen before where even my damping plate may be causing instability. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 02:00 Subject: Digest from 07/07/2008 00:01:28 > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 1 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? > From: Charles Patton > Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:02:39 -0700 > > Brett, Chris, > Thanks to Chris for tossing the wrench in the works -- :-) -- I have now > spent the day trying to resurrect trig math I haven't done seriously for > 35 years. I think I have the formula for Chris's bottom pivot, but I'm > still psyching out the upper pivot, so I haven't started sims yet. What > I think at this point is that as the gate swings the lower point > trajectory tightens up (radius decreases) with swing while the upper > pivot flattens out (radius increases) which I would assume leads to > unstability - the bob going lower as it swings. But this seems to fly > in the face of Chris's success in long period Lehman. The answer may lie > in the combination in that the gate is twisting as it swings so the > vertical position of the bob would play an important part of the > stability. There has to be some point that the beam twists about, and > if the bob is mounted above or below this point the twist could > compensate or increase the trajectory error of the bob. > > The morning is spoken for, so I'll try to get back on the problem in the > afternoon. > > Now I'll take a big leap of faith and put forth the formulas I think > describe the lower pivot. Assume a cylinder of radius R with a beam of > length K having a flat face resting on the cylinder. Angle T is the > angle of the contact point of cylinder/face (beam angle). The angle of > a line thru the center C of the cylinder and plumb bob P is equal to > angle T minus angle B. Line G = C to P. All angles are in radians. > Then: > B = T(R/K) > G = (R+K)/cosB > x & y are referenced from C > x = G(sin(T-B)) > y = G(cos(T-B)) > > If there's interest, I can try to do a standard proof deriving the > above. I didn't get to the formulas above with a step-by-step written > proof, so it very well could be flawed. Good for discussion though. > > Anyway, later. > Chas. > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 2 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Is a Lehman geometry rolling pivot inherently unstable? > From: ChrisAtUpw@....... > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 20:36:46 EDT > > > --part1_cf4.316dc149.35a4109e_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Language: en > > In a message dated 2008/07/07, charles.r.patton@........ writes: > > > Thanks to Chris for tossing the wrench in the works -- :-) -- I have now=20 > > spent the day trying to resurrect trig math I haven=E2=80=99t done serious= > ly for=20 > > 35 years. I think I have the formula for Chris=E2=80=99s bottom pivot, bu= > t I=E2=80=99m=20 > > still psyching out the upper pivot, so I haven=E2=80=99t started sims yet.= > What=20 > > I think at this point is that as the gate swings the lower point=20 > > trajectory tightens up (radius decreases) with swing while the upper=20 > > pivot flattens out (radius increases) which I would assume leads to=20 > > unstability =E2=80=93 the bob going lower as it swings. But this seems to= > fly=20 > > in the face of Chris=E2=80=99s success in long period Lehman.=20 > > Hi Charles, > > I am not entirely sure how you are analysing it, but you seem to be=20 > having problems. > > Consider a sphere of radius R with the flat end of the arm of length=20= > L=20 > resting up against it. If the arm swings through a small angle d, the=20 > distance between the centre of mass and the axis of rotation increases by ~=20= > L x=20 > (Rxd/L)^2 / 2. The separation must increase, since the contact point on the=20= > face=20 > has rolled sideways by Rxd from it's minimum central position. Whether the m= > ass=20 > rises or not depends on the behavoir of the top hinge. For a wire top=20 > suspension the centre of curvature should be ~constant and the mass should t= > end rise=20 > slightly, but the wire clamp must have well defined edges. If it does not, t= > he=20 > top centre of rotation will move sightly away from the vertical, increasing=20 > the stability, but decreasing the response linearity. > =20 > > Now I=E2=80=99ll take a big leap of faith and put forth the formulas I thi= > nk=20 > > describe the lower pivot. Assume a cylinder of radius R with a beam of=20 > > length K having a flat face resting on the cylinder. Angle T is the=20 > > angle of the contact point of cylinder/face (beam angle). The angle of=20 > > a line thru the center C of the cylinder and plumb bob P is equal to=20 > > angle T minus angle B. Line G =3D C to P. All angles are in radians. > > Then: > > B =3D T(R/K) > > G =3D (R+K)/cosB > > x & y are referenced from C > > x =3D G(sin(T-B)) > > y =3D G(cos(T-B)) > >=20 > > If there=E2=80=99s interest, I can try to do a standard proof deriving the= > =20 > > above. I didn=E2=80=99t get to the formulas above with a step-by-step wri= > tten=20 > > proof, so it very well could be flawed. > > Out of interest, what types of system were giving trouble in ''so man= > y=20 > anecdotal stories about the difficulty of adjusting Lehmans in the long=20 > period realm''?? You seem to be implying that there must be some inherent pr= > oblem,=20 > when something inadequate in the construction seems the more likely=20 > explanation.=20 > I would expect to get mechanical problems with some of the amateur=20 > designs previously described. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman =20 > > --part1_cf4.316dc149.35a4109e_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Language: en > > In a me= > ssage dated 2008/07/07, charles.r.patton@........ writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Thanks to Chris for tossing the= > wrench in the works -- :-) -- I have now
> spent the day trying to resurrect trig math I haven=E2=80=99t done seriously= > for
> 35 years.  I think I have the formula for Chris=E2=80=99s bottom pivot,= > but I=E2=80=99m
> still psyching out the upper pivot, so I haven=E2=80=99t started sims yet.&n= > bsp; What
> I think at this point is that as the gate swings the lower point
> trajectory tightens up (radius decreases) with swing while the upper
> pivot flattens out (radius increases) which I would assume leads to
> unstability =E2=80=93 the bob going lower as it swings.  But this seems= > to fly
> in the face of Chris=E2=80=99s success in long period Lehman.
COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE= > =3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> >
>
>
#ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"= > >Hi Charles,
>
>        I am not entirely sure how you are anal= > ysing it, but you seem to be having problems.
>
>        Consider a sphere of radius R with the=20= > flat end of the arm of length L resting up against it. If the arm swings thr= > ough a small angle d, the distance between the centre of mass and the axis o= > f rotation increases by ~ L x (Rxd/L)^2 / 2. The separation must increase, s= > ince the contact point on the face has rolled sideways by Rxd from it's mini= > mum central position. Whether the mass rises or not depends on the behavoir=20= > of the top hinge. For a wire top suspension the centre of curvature should b= > e ~constant and the mass should tend rise slightly, but the wire clamp must=20= > have well defined edges. If it does not, the top centre of rotation will mov= > e sightly away from the vertical, increasing the stability, but decreasing t= > he response linearity.
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Now I=E2=80=99ll take a big lea= > p of faith and put forth the formulas I think
> describe the lower pivot.  Assume a cylinder of radius R with a beam of= >
> length K having a flat face resting on the cylinder.  Angle T is the R> > angle of the contact point of cylinder/face (beam angle).  The angle of= >
> a line thru the center C of the cylinder and plumb bob P is equal to
> angle T minus angle B.  Line G =3D C to P.  All angles are in radi= > ans.
> Then:
> B =3D T(R/K)
> G =3D (R+K)/cosB
>         x & y are referenced from C R> > x =3D  G(sin(T-B))
> y =3D  G(cos(T-B))
>
> If there=E2=80=99s interest, I can try to do a standard proof deriving the <= > BR> > above.  I didn=E2=80=99t get to the formulas above with a step-by-step=20= > written
> proof, so it very well could be flawed.

>
>        Out of interest, what types of system w= > ere giving trouble in ''so many anecdotal stories about the difficulty of ad= > justing Lehmans in the long period realm''?? You seem to be implying that th= > ere must be some inherent problem, when something inadequate in the construc= > tion seems the more likely explanation.
>        I would expect to get mechanical proble= > ms with some of the amateur designs previously described.
>
>        Regards,
>
>        Chris Chapman
> > --part1_cf4.316dc149.35a4109e_boundary-- > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-DIGEST-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake strength From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:21:20 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/08, steinar@............. writes: > That is, I'm assuming that the strength of an earthquake drops by the > square of the distance. Is that a valid assumptation for earthquakes? Hi Steinar, The P and S waves are likely to fall off roughly as the cube of the path distance through the Earth. Surface waves may initially decrease as the square of the surface distance, but also increase in intensity as the source approaches 180 degrees - the wave front is contracting in circumferance. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/08, steinar@............. writes:

That is, I'm assuming that the=20= strength of an earthquake drops by the
square of the distance. Is that a valid assumptation for earthquakes?

Hi Steinar,

       The P and S waves are likely to fall of= f roughly as the cube of the path distance through the Earth. Surface waves=20= may initially decrease as the square of the surface distance, but also incre= ase in intensity as the source approaches 180 degrees - the wave front is co= ntracting in circumferance.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Digest from 07/07/2008 00:01:28 From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:46:36 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/08, rpratt@............. writes: > My experience is that support flexure or lose threads in supporting legs > are the barriers to settup stability and the floor of the basement is the > controlling factor over days or weeks. Hi Randy, Agreed! I put a wavy spring washer and a lock nut on the top of the baseplate to keep the threads under a fairly high tension at all times and to prevent any rocking or slipping of the threads. These are better than the ordinary split spring washers and give a force along the thread axis. This seems to work fine. I set the level etc, tighten the lock nut to ~1/2 compress the spring washer and then make any final level adjustment. You can only try selecting areas of the floor away from load bearing and particularly external walls, if possible. I am also finding that with the stronger magnets I have obtained that I am> > fighting magnetic effects not seen before where even my damping plate may be > causing instability. This suggests that you are using an Aluminum damping plate and that the edges of the plate are getting close to the edges of the magnets, during normal operation. There is a very high field gradient here. Increase the width of the damping plate so that it always completely covers the magnets? Aluminum is paramagnetic, some alloys more than others. I use 1/16" Copper sheet. Copper is very slightly diamagnetic and is ~free of this force problem. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/08, rpratt@............. writes:

My experience is that support f= lexure or lose threads in supporting legs are the barriers to settup stabili= ty and the floor of the basement is the controlling factor over days or week= s.


Hi Randy,

    Agreed! I put a wavy spring washer and a lock nut on the=20= top of the baseplate to keep the threads under a fairly high tension at all=20= times and to prevent any rocking or slipping of the threads. These are bette= r than the ordinary split spring washers and give a force along the thread a= xis. This seems to work fine. I set the level etc, tighten the lock nut to ~= 1/2 compress the spring washer and then make any final level adjustment.

       You can only try selecting areas of the= floor away from load bearing and particularly external walls, if possible.<= BR>
I am also finding that with the stronger magnets I have obtained that I am<= BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT:= 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
fighting magnetic effects not seen before where even my damping plate may be=
causing instability.


       This suggests that you are using an Alu= minum damping plate and that the edges of the plate are getting close to the= edges of the magnets, during normal operation. There is a very high field g= radient here. Increase the width of the damping plate so that it always comp= letely covers the magnets? Aluminum is paramagnetic, some alloys more than o= thers. I use 1/16" Copper sheet. Copper is very slightly diamagnetic and is=20= ~free of this force problem.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: The Lehman is Up and Running From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:40:24 -0700 I connected my first Lehman to the electronics last night and receiving data. It looks just like a seismograph should. Now the next question is: what is the best method to adjust the gain of the amplifier-A/D converter (I have Larry's boards). Do I wait to receive some substantial events and then make adjustments. Also, is there any consensus (probably not) on desired format for the seismometer display. I'm using 4 traces of 10 minutes each at this time. Gary Gary Lindgren 585 Lincoln Ave Palo Alto CA 94301 650-326-0655 www.blue-eagle-technologies.com cymonsplace.blogspot.com

I connected my first Lehman to the electronics last = night and receiving data. It looks just like a seismograph should. Now the = next question is: what is the best method to adjust the gain of the = amplifier-A/D converter (I have Larry’s boards). Do I wait to receive some = substantial events and then make adjustments. Also, is there any consensus (probably = not) on desired format for the seismometer display. I’m using 4 traces of = 10 minutes each at this time.

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gary Lindgren

585 Lincoln Ave

Palo Alto CA 94301

 

650-326-0655<= /span>

 

www.blue-eagle-technologies.com

cymonsplace.blogspot.com 

 

 

Subject: Re: The Lehman is Up and Running From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:51:46 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/09, gel@................. writes: > I connected my first Lehman to the electronics last night and receiving=20 > data. It looks just like a seismograph should.=20 Hi Gary, Well done! Now the next question is: what is the best method to adjust the gain of the=20 > amplifier-A/D converter (I have Larry=E2=80=99s boards). Do I wait to rece= ive some=20 > substantial events and then make adjustments.=20 I set the gain initially so that the ocean microseisms are about 100=20= /=20 200 counts in 'quiet' conditions. You may want to record quakes which have=20 1/10 the amplitude of the background. Also, is there any consensus (probably not) on desired format for the=20 seismometer=20 > display. I=E2=80=99m using 4 traces of 10 minutes each at this time. Most folks use a 24 line x 1 hr 'drumplot' display. You can view the=20 last 24 hrs activity at a glance and then extract any section which has an=20 earthquake on it for further analysis. You can also set display filters to i= gnore=20 the microseism background. Regards, Chris Chapman =20 In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/09, gel@................. writes:

I connected my first Lehman to=20= the electronics last night and receiving data. It looks just like a seismogr= aph should.


Hi Gary,

       Well done!

Now the next question is: what is the best method to adjust the gain of the=20=

amplifier-A/D converter (I hav= e Larry=E2=80=99s boards). Do I wait to receive some substantial events and=20= then make adjustments.


       I set the gain initially so that the o= cean microseisms are about 100 / 200 counts in 'quiet' conditions. You may w= ant to record quakes which have 1/10 the amplitude of the background.

Also, is there any consensus (probably not) on desired format for the seismo= meter

display. I=E2=80=99m using 4 t= races of 10 minutes each at this time.


       Most folks use a 24 line x 1 hr 'drumpl= ot' display. You can view the last 24 hrs activity at a glance and then extr= act any section which has an earthquake on it for further analysis. You can=20= also set display filters to ignore the microseism background.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: RE: The Lehman is Up and Running From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 20:24:25 -0700 Thank You Chris for the =E2=80=98drumplot=E2=80=99 advice. One thing I = saw immediately with this new display is the (I assume) auto traffic = noise. It is relatively quiet from about 11PM to 6Am local time, after = that the background noise builds up. I should add that the resonant = period is about 23 seconds and I=E2=80=99m using the Chapman magnet and = sensor coil design. Thank you, Gary =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of ChrisAtUpw@....... Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:52 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: The Lehman is Up and Running =20 In a message dated 2008/07/09, gel@................. writes: I connected my first Lehman to the electronics last night and receiving = data. It looks just like a seismograph should.=20 Hi Gary, Well done! Now the next question is: what is the best method to adjust the gain of = the=20 amplifier-A/D converter (I have Larry=E2=80=99s boards). Do I wait to = receive some substantial events and then make adjustments.=20 I set the gain initially so that the ocean microseisms are about = 100 / 200 counts in 'quiet' conditions. You may want to record quakes = which have 1/10 the amplitude of the background. Also, is there any consensus (probably not) on desired format for the = seismometer=20 display. I=E2=80=99m using 4 traces of 10 minutes each at this time. Most folks use a 24 line x 1 hr 'drumplot' display. You can view = the last 24 hrs activity at a glance and then extract any section which = has an earthquake on it for further analysis. You can also set display = filters to ignore the microseism background. Regards, Chris Chapman=20

Thank You Chris for the =E2=80=98drumplot=E2=80=99 = advice. One thing I saw immediately with this new display is the (I assume) auto traffic noise. = It is relatively quiet from about 11PM to 6Am local time, after that the = background noise builds up. I should add that the resonant period is about 23 = seconds and I=E2=80=99m using the Chapman magnet and sensor coil = design.

Thank you,

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

From:= psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On = Behalf Of ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:52 PM
To: psn-l@..............
Subject: Re: The Lehman is Up and Running

 

In a message dated 2008/07/09, gel@................. writes:


I connected my first Lehman to the electronics last night and receiving = data. It looks just like a seismograph should.



Hi Gary,

       Well done!

Now the next question is: what is the best method to adjust the gain of = the

amplifier-A/D converter (I have = Larry=E2=80=99s boards). Do I wait to receive some substantial events and then make adjustments. =



       I set the gain initially so that = the ocean microseisms are about 100 / 200 counts in 'quiet' conditions. You may = want to record quakes which have 1/10 the amplitude of the background.

Also, is there any consensus (probably not) on desired format for the seismometer

display. I=E2=80=99m using 4 traces of 10 = minutes each at this time.



       Most folks use a 24 line x 1 hr = 'drumplot' display. You can view the last 24 hrs activity at a glance and then = extract any section which has an earthquake on it for further analysis. You can also = set display filters to ignore the microseism background.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman

Subject: Re: Earthquake strength From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 21:07:02 -0700 Steiner, You could use the equation for Ms magnitude to compute the expected surface wave amplitude at your location. The equation is given in this spread sheet: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/magnitude_files/ML_magnitude.xls under Sheet 2. This will just be an rough estimate of the amplitude you may see because the radiation pattern of the earthquake will also effect the amplitude. Cheers, John At 02:08 AM 7/8/2008, you wrote: >For my web page I automatically retreave current earthquake data from >USGS and NORSAR in order to make a table of earthquakes which my >instrument should be able to detect. I then calculate arrival times >for the P and S waves and add that to my plot as well. > >Quakes that satisfy the equation sqrt(10)^(m+2.5) > d, where m is the >magnitude and d is the distance in km, are currently in my list, and >that limit seems roughly to correspond to what I can detect. > >That is, I'm assuming that the strength of an earthquake drops by the >square of the distance. Is that a valid assumptation for earthquakes? > >-- >Steinar Midtskogen >http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: quake prediction From: ian ian@........... Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:11:20 +0100 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7497672.stm __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake strength From: Barry Lotz barry_lotz@............. Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 18:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Steiner S-T Morrissey posted a discussion about this to psn on 13 nov 1999. I plotted a log-log sheet with "sensor count" on the y axis and distance from sensor on the x axis and drew magnitude lines (m =3.0,3.5,4.0, etc) . I then plotted individual points for each quake I recorded on this graph. I got pretty good correlation. Regards Barry John Lahr wrote: Steiner, You could use the equation for Ms magnitude to compute the expected surface wave amplitude at your location. The equation is given in this spread sheet: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/magnitude_files/ML_magnitude.xls under Sheet 2. This will just be an rough estimate of the amplitude you may see because the radiation pattern of the earthquake will also effect the amplitude. Cheers, John At 02:08 AM 7/8/2008, you wrote: >For my web page I automatically retreave current earthquake data from >USGS and NORSAR in order to make a table of earthquakes which my >instrument should be able to detect. I then calculate arrival times >for the P and S waves and add that to my plot as well. > >Quakes that satisfy the equation sqrt(10)^(m+2.5) > d, where m is the >magnitude and d is the distance in km, are currently in my list, and >that limit seems roughly to correspond to what I can detect. > >That is, I'm assuming that the strength of an earthquake drops by the >square of the distance. Is that a valid assumptation for earthquakes? > >-- >Steinar Midtskogen >http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)
Steiner
S-T Morrissey posted a discussion about this to psn on 13 nov 1999. I plotted a log-log sheet
with "sensor count" on the y axis and distance from sensor on the x axis and drew magnitude lines (m =3.0,3.5,4.0, etc) . I then plotted individual points for each quake I recorded on this graph. I got pretty good correlation.
Regards
Barry

John Lahr <johnjan@........> wrote:
Steiner,

You could use the equation for Ms magnitude to compute the expected
surface wave amplitude at your location. The equation is given in this
spread sheet:
http://jclahr.com/science/psn/magnitude_files/ML_magnitude.xls
under Sheet 2.

This will just be an rough estimate of the amplitude you may see
because the radiation pattern of the earthquake will also effect the
amplitude.

Cheers,
John

At 02:08 AM 7/8/2008, you wrote:
>For my web page I automatically retreave current earthquake data from
>USGS and NORSAR in order to make a table of earthquakes which my
>instrument should be able to detect. I then calculate arrival times
>for the P and S waves and add that to my plot as well.
>
>Quakes that satisfy the equation sqrt(10)^(m+2.5) > d, where m is the
>magnitude and d is the distance in km, are currently in my list, and
>that limit seems roughly to correspond to what I can detect.
>
>That is, I'm assuming that the strength of an earthquake drops by the
>square of the distance. Is that a valid assumptation for earthquakes?
>
>--
>Steinar Midtskogen
>http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/


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Subject: Re: Earthquake strength From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:59:35 +0000 Hi Local earthquakes have higher frequancy compnment then telesesmic earthquakes (more then 1500 km away). Due to that fact a 30 second sensor won't detect local earthquakes well or not at all. For optimal dection of local and regional earthquakes you need a sensor that is 1Hz, but geophones up to 4,5Hz also work quite well. But are not as senstive to smaller earthquakes, by best dection is ML0,5 (unchecked size) at 18 km. You might be missing local earthquakes in you area by just using a 30 second instrument. Regards. J=F3n Fr=EDmann. On Wed, 2008-07-09 at 18:34 -0700, Barry Lotz wrote: > Steiner > S-T Morrissey posted a discussion about this to psn on 13 nov 1999. I > plotted a log-log sheet > with "sensor count" on the y axis and distance from sensor on the x > axis and drew magnitude lines (m =3D3.0,3.5,4.0, etc) . I then plotted > individual points for each quake I recorded on this graph. I got > pretty good correlation. > Regards > Barry >=20 > John Lahr wrote: > Steiner, > =20 > You could use the equation for Ms magnitude to compute the > expected > surface wave amplitude at your location. The equation is given > in this > spread sheet: > http://jclahr.com/science/psn/magnitude_files/ML_magnitude.xls > under Sheet 2. > =20 > This will just be an rough estimate of the amplitude you may > see > because the radiation pattern of the earthquake will also > effect the > amplitude. > =20 > Cheers, > John > =20 > At 02:08 AM 7/8/2008, you wrote: > >For my web page I automatically retreave current earthquake > data from > >USGS and NORSAR in order to make a table of earthquakes which > my > >instrument should be able to detect. I then calculate arrival > times > >for the P and S waves and add that to my plot as well. > > > >Quakes that satisfy the equation sqrt(10)^(m+2.5) > d, where > m is the > >magnitude and d is the distance in km, are currently in my > list, and > >that limit seems roughly to correspond to what I can detect. > > > >That is, I'm assuming that the strength of an earthquake > drops by the > >square of the distance. Is that a valid assumptation for > earthquakes? > > > >-- > >Steinar Midtskogen > >http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/ > =20 > =20 > __________________________________________________________ > =20 > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > =20 > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with=20 > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake strength From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:00:55 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/10, jonfr@......... writes: > Local earthquakes have higher frequency component then telesesmic > earthquakes (more then 1500 km away). Due to that fact a 30 second > sensor won't detect local earthquakes well or not at all. Hi Jon, Sorry, but this is not correct. Our 20 second Lehmans detect ALL frequencies from 0.05 Hz up to the limit of the low pass filter, 5 Hz in our case. If you had a 10 Hz filter fitted, this would be your limit. The response is flat with velocity between these limits. For optimal > dection of local and regional earthquakes you need a sensor > that is 1Hz, but geophones up to 4,5Hz also work quite well. But are not as > senstive > to smaller earthquakes, by best dection is ML0,5 (unchecked size) at 18 km. Local quakes have components up to about 10 Hz, but may show only small amplitude surface waves at long periods. You can extend the range of a 4.5 Hz geophone down to about 0.5 Hz electronically. It will then respond to all quakes with amplitudes above the local noise levels. Geophone responses are usually limited by local environmental noise, not by electronic noise. They pick up everything that can be detected within their and the amplifier's response range! Have a look at the FFT plot of a local quake on your geophones? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/10, jonfr@......... writes:

Local earthquakes have higher f= requency component then telesesmic
earthquakes (more then 1500 km away).  Due to that fact a 30 second
sensor won't detect local earthquakes well or not at all.


Hi Jon,

       Sorry, but this is not correct. Our 20=20= second Lehmans detect ALL frequencies  from 0.05 Hz up to the limit of=20= the low pass filter, 5 Hz in our case. If you had a 10 Hz filter fitted, thi= s would be your limit. The response is flat with velocity between these limi= ts.

For optimal
dection of local an= d regional earthquakes you need a sensor that is 1Hz, but geophones up to 4,= 5Hz also work quite well. But are not as senstive
to smaller earthquakes, by best dection is ML0,5 (unchecked size) at 18 km.<= /BLOCKQUOTE>

       Local quakes have components up to abou= t 10 Hz, but may show only small amplitude surface waves at long periods. Yo= u can extend the range of a 4.5 Hz geophone down to about 0.5 Hz electronica= lly. It will then respond to all quakes with amplitudes above the local nois= e levels.

       Geophone responses are usually limited=20= by local environmental noise, not by electronic noise. They pick up everythi= ng that can be detected within their and the amplifier's response range! Hav= e a look at the FFT plot of a local quake on your geophones?

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Earthquake strength From: Steinar Midtskogen steinar@............. Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:56:31 +0200 [Jón Frímann] > Local earthquakes have higher frequancy compnment then telesesmic > earthquakes (more then 1500 km away). Due to that fact a 30 second > sensor won't detect local earthquakes well or not at all. For optimal > dection of local and regional earthquakes you need a sensor that is 1Hz, > but geophones up to 4,5Hz also work quite well. But are not as senstive > to smaller earthquakes, by best dection is ML0,5 (unchecked size) at 18 > km. I think I can expect several <1.5 earthquakes a year here in the Oslo region and perhaps a couple of slightly stronger ones which are usually not felt, but there hasn't been one yet to provide a test. However, a brief thunderstorm a few days ago was clearly visible on the plot for about 20 minutes, which matched the period lightnings were striking within a distance of few hundred metres. The rain was also very heavy (14 mm in 10 minutes), but I don't know if that can influence the seismometer. I've been wondering whether a geophone would be something to get, but I suspect that my site isn't very suited, since rail lines pass 40 meters away. -- Steinar Midtskogen http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake strength From: Steinar Midtskogen steinar@............. Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:46:31 +0200 I wrote earlier today: > I think I can expect several <1.5 earthquakes a year here in the Oslo > region and perhaps a couple of slightly stronger ones which are > usually not felt, but there hasn't been one yet to provide a test. According to NORSAR there was a 1.0 earthquake 25 km away from here at 12:07:46 today, and sure enough, when I look at my data, I got a big spike at 12:07:56 roughly at 2.5 Hz. It was just one short spike which echoed at most 25 seconds. Is there a formula which, given the distance from the earthquake, will give the frequency which is most likely to be the strongest? -- Steinar Midtskogen http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: The Zollner suspension seismometer From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:49:15 -0600 Hi all, Looking at the history of seismometers on the web; the Zollner suspension has held some interest to me; as it "seems" to have alot of potential, although I've not yet tried it out. Theres very little on the web about it. http://njsas.org/gallery/pete_zollner/Figure_1_Standard_Seismograph and, its shown in Figure 6 below: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/topics/seismology/history/part06.php Anyone tried such? Results? Take care, Meredith Lamb
Hi all,
 
Looking at the history of seismometers on the web; the Zollner suspension has held some interest
to me; as it "seems" to have alot of potential, although I've not yet tried it out.  Theres very little on
the web about it.
 
 
and, its shown in Figure 6 below:
 
 
Anyone tried such?  Results?
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb
 
 
 
Subject: Re: The Zollner suspension seismometer From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Hi Meridith I've been running my version of this since 1988. It is a 3 second horizontal with violin "E" string as the wires. It is a little larger than a shoe box and I see easily 7.0 magnitude quakes anywhere on earth. Several folks have duplicated my design with good results. I think there is a sketch of it in the PSN archives somewhere. If you are interested, I can send you some pictures. Regards, Pete Rowe --- On Fri, 7/11/08, meredith lamb wrote: > From: meredith lamb > Subject: The Zollner suspension seismometer > To: psn-l@.............. > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 10:49 PM > Hi all, > > Looking at the history of seismometers on the web; the > Zollner > suspension has held some interest > to me; as it "seems" to have alot of potential, > although I've not yet tried > it out. Theres very little on > the web about it. > > http://njsas.org/gallery/pete_zollner/Figure_1_Standard_Seismograph > > and, its shown in Figure 6 below: > > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/topics/seismology/history/part06.php > > Anyone tried such? Results? > > Take care, Meredith Lamb __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: The Zollner suspension seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 07:43:17 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/12, paleoartifact@......... writes: > Looking at the history of seismometers on the web; the Zollner suspension > has held some interest to me; as it "seems" to have alot of potential, > although I've not yet tried it out. Theres very little on the web about it. > http://njsas.org/gallery/pete_zollner/Figure_1_Standard_Seismograph > and, its shown in Figure 6 below: > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/topics/seismology/history/part06.php > Anyone tried such? Results? Hi Meredith, I think that it was more popular in Europe. I seem to remember gravimeters made this way? The Sprengnethers used a horizontal wire in tension, rather than a diagonal wire. Regards, Chris In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/12, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Looking at the history of seism= ometers on the web; the Zollner suspension has held some interest to me; as=20= it "seems" to have alot of potential, although I've not yet tried it out. Th= eres very little on the web about it.
http://njsas.org/gallery/pete_zollner/Figure_1_Standard_Seismograph=
and, its shown in Figure 6 below:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/topics/seismology/history/part= 06.php
Anyone tried such?  Results?


Hi Meredith,

       I think that it was more popular in Eur= ope. I seem to remember gravimeters made this way?
       The Sprengnethers used a horizontal wir= e in tension, rather than a diagonal wire.

       Regards,

       Chris
Subject: seismic records From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:52:34 -0500 Is there a way/place where I can get records(sac binary) from educational/government stations for time periods that are not listed as earthquakes? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: seismic records From: Bob Hancock carpediem1@......... Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:27:28 -0700 Yes, you can access SAC Binary files back to 1 January 1990 through Wilber II, at IRIS. Here is a link: http://www.iris.edu/dms/wilber.htm You will have access to world wide records, although I have found some of the older data is a little thin when working with non-US networks. The SPYDER files are the initial lists of event. You can only access one hour of data from SPYDER. FARM events are events that have gone through review, and you will often see revised event location, depth, and magnitude. They can be listed as early as 45 days, but sometimes are longer. Bob McClure has written a SAC to PSN utility available from his web site. You can use that to convert the files to PSN if you like. It available on his web site at: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/index.html Look for WinQuake and SAC utilities listing. Be aware that the starting time on SAC files vary by a few seconds and you will have to crop them through WinQuake to make a data set. It would probably be best if you convert them to PSN files first and then do the file modification. When you use Bob McClure's SAC to PSN program, you will still have to manually add the magnitude and comments fields. Regards, Bob Hancock On 7/12/08 7:52 AM, "Thomas Dick" wrote: > Is there a way/place where I can get records(sac binary) from > educational/government stations for time periods that are not listed as > earthquakes? > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: The Zollner suspension seismometer From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:43:48 -0600 Hi Pete, Yes...I'd like to see the pictures. If its OK, I can "probably" easily put them up on the web (I'am assuming digital) if its OK with you, so other folks can see them...or, you maybe able to do so? I "assume" you're not the "Pete" with the first web reference? Any specific problems you're seen; or, good points come to mind? Is it capable of longer periods? Thanks, Meredith Lamb On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Pete Rowe wrote: > Hi Meridith > I've been running my version of this since 1988. It is a 3 second > horizontal with violin "E" string as the wires. It is a little larger than a > shoe box and I see easily 7.0 magnitude quakes anywhere on earth. Several > folks have duplicated my design with good results. I think there is a sketch > of it in the PSN archives somewhere. If you are interested, I can send you > some pictures. > > Regards, > Pete Rowe > > > --- On Fri, 7/11/08, meredith lamb wrote: > > > From: meredith lamb > > Subject: The Zollner suspension seismometer > > To: psn-l@.............. > > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 10:49 PM > > Hi all, > > > > Looking at the history of seismometers on the web; the > > Zollner > > suspension has held some interest > > to me; as it "seems" to have alot of potential, > > although I've not yet tried > > it out. Theres very little on > > the web about it. > > > > http://njsas.org/gallery/pete_zollner/Figure_1_Standard_Seismograph > > > > and, its shown in Figure 6 below: > > > > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/topics/seismology/history/part06.php > > > > Anyone tried such? Results? > > > > Take care, Meredith Lamb > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >
Hi Pete,
 
Yes...I'd like to see the pictures.  If its OK, I can "probably" easily put them up on the web (I'am assuming digital) if
its OK with you, so other folks can see them...or, you maybe able to do so?   I "assume" you're not the "Pete" with the first web reference?
 
Any specific problems you're seen; or, good points come to mind?  Is it capable of longer periods?

Thanks, Meredith Lamb
 
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Pete Rowe <ptrowe@.........> wrote:
Hi Meridith
I've been running my version of this since 1988. It is a 3 second horizontal with violin "E" string as the wires. It is a little larger than a shoe box and I see easily 7.0 magnitude quakes anywhere on earth. Several folks have duplicated my design with good results. I think there is a sketch of it in the PSN archives somewhere. If you are interested, I can send you some pictures.

Regards,
Pete Rowe


--- On Fri, 7/11/08, meredith lamb <paleoartifact@.........> wrote:

> From: meredith lamb <paleoartifact@.........>
> Subject: The Zollner suspension seismometer
> To: psn-l@..............
> Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 10:49 PM
> Hi all,
>
> Looking at the history of seismometers on the web; the
> Zollner
> suspension has held some interest
> to me; as it "seems" to have alot of potential,
> although I've not yet tried
> it out.  Theres very little on
> the web about it.
>
> http://njsas.org/gallery/pete_zollner/Figure_1_Standard_Seismograph
>
> and, its shown in Figure 6 below:
>
> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/topics/seismology/history/part06.php
>
> Anyone tried such?  Results?
>
> Take care, Meredith Lamb



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Subject: Re: The Zollner suspension seismometer From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:01:15 -0600 Hi Chris, You're right it was originally developed for a gravimeter; but recommended by this Zollner for use in a seismometer. Haven't found this Zollner persons first name. German design of 1869. Being as their is almost zero on the web, it sounds like it had "problems" of some sort. I'd think it would need a very strong boom to prevent bowing or vibration; and a strong support frame. The vertical single wire Wood-Andersons (horizontal sensing) of the 1920's, are "sort-of" considered a variation. Take care, Meredith On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 5:43 AM, wrote: > In a message dated 2008/07/12, paleoartifact@......... writes: > > Looking at the history of seismometers on the web; the Zollner suspension > has held some interest to me; as it "seems" to have alot of potential, > although I've not yet tried it out. Theres very little on the web about it. > http://njsas.org/gallery/pete_zollner/Figure_1_Standard_Seismograph > and, its shown in Figure 6 below: > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/topics/seismology/history/part06.php > Anyone tried such? Results? > > > > Hi Meredith, > > I think that it was more popular in Europe. I seem to remember > gravimeters made this way? > The Sprengnethers used a horizontal wire in tension, rather than a > diagonal wire. > > Regards, > > Chris
Hi Chris,
 
You're right it was originally developed for a gravimeter; but recommended by this Zollner for use in a seismometer.
Haven't found this Zollner persons first name.  German design of 1869.  Being as their is almost zero on the web, it sounds
like it had "problems" of some sort.  I'd think it would need a very strong boom to prevent bowing or vibration; and a
strong support frame.  The vertical single wire Wood-Andersons (horizontal sensing) of the 1920's, are "sort-of" considered a variation.
 
Take care, Meredith

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 5:43 AM, <ChrisAtUpw@.......> wrote:
In a message dated 2008/07/12, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Looking at the history of seismometers on the web; the Zollner suspension has held some interest to me; as it "seems" to have alot of potential, although I've not yet tried it out. Theres very little on the web about it.
http://njsas.org/gallery/pete_zollner/Figure_1_Standard_Seismograph
and, its shown in Figure 6 below:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/topics/seismology/history/part06.php
Anyone tried such?  Results?


Hi Meredith,

       I think that it was more popular in Europe. I seem to remember gravimeters made this way?
       The Sprengnethers used a horizontal wire in tension, rather than a diagonal wire.

       Regards,

       Chris

Subject: Re: seismic records From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:10:51 -0500 Bob, your comments put a lot of good information in one place. I are having a lot of mine blasting, construction and earthquakes less than 3 in this area. They aren't found as data files on Wilber -- or I don't know how to find them. I wanted to do some triangulation. There also seems to be some minor ducting going on ... blasting seems stronger than it really is. Might even try some fossil hunting later in the Fall if I can afford the gasoline. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: seismic records From: Bob Hancock carpediem1@......... Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:57:41 -0700 I don't believe there is a database of mine blasting, and construction events. One of the problems with low magnitude events is the wave amplitude which decreases with distance. The other thing is that initial movement on a P wave will be the same regardless of the quadrant you are in. That is how underground nuclear testing is detected. The nuclear bomb testing that was conducted by North Korea was picked up on Chinese seismograms, and the USGS had a link to the data. We have lots of open pit copper mining here in Southern Arizona, and quite often I see the surface wave, but may loose the P & S waves in the background. You can use the use the USGS program for phase timing, see link: http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/travel_times/compute_tt.html Or its sister program which only has events from the last 14 days: http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/travel_times/artim.html Both programs have wave amplitude information which may give you some idea of what events you can see from whatever distance. I use them all the time to check on the phase travel times. Another program you can download from IRIS is VASE, see link: http://www.iris.edu/news/newsletter/vol9no2/page3.htm This program will allow you to download data from various seismic stations that have recorded data in the IRIS database. You select the network, station, channels and time you want, and the format (SAC Binary). I have used this to check out undocumented events. One advantage of the vase program is that you can download several hours of data at one time. If you wanted to search a block of data with this program its possible. Again, you have to specify a date and time. Its a JAVA based program, and probably not suitable for a dial-up connection. On comment about mine blasts. Here in Southern Arizona, they frequently use ripple blasting which is a series of individual blasts over a specified distance in quick sequence, such as one or two seconds. You can often see the initial P wave clearly, if its close enough, but after that the seismogram gets very muddy trying to pick out everything else. I am unaware (they are probably here) of any tunnel mining in Southern Arizona, and the single blasts typical of that type of mining. Bob Hancock On 7/12/08 10:10 AM, "Thomas Dick" wrote: > Bob, your comments put a lot of good information in one place. I are having > a lot of mine blasting, construction and earthquakes less than 3 in this > area. They aren't found as data files on Wilber -- or I don't know how to > find them. I wanted to do some triangulation. There also seems to be some > minor ducting going on ... blasting seems stronger than it really is. Might > even try some fossil hunting later in the Fall if I can afford the gasoline. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: seismic records From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:21:42 -0500 I display about two hours of data on a computer monitor. So, I have to stift through data older than that. You can use the use the USGS program for phase timing I am familiar with this program. I used it a lot. The USGS doesn't supply predicted arrival times for smaller quakes in areas like Puerto Rica, Dominian Republic and the Virgin Islands. The VASE program seems interesting. I downloaded it, the manuel, and looked at the video. Will try it out later. One advantage of the vase program is that you can download several hours of data at one time. If you wanted to search a block of data with this program its possible. This may work for me. There are at least six seismic stations within 50 miles of this location. I just need to find the way "in". may loose the P & S waves in the background & they frequently use ripple blasting which is a series of individual blasts over a specified distance in quick sequence, such as one or two seconds I have geophones, AS-1 and two Lehmans. Lately, I have been displaying only the two Lehmans. I just recorded one of the blasts with no P and S. Even the AS-1 didn't record any, but the vertical geophone did; at least eight detenations with the last two being larger. not suitable for a dial-up connection. I have cable I am unaware (they are probably here) of any tunnel mining in Southern Arizona, and the single blasts typical of that type of mining. I have a couple near here -- but at least fifty miles away. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: The Zollner suspension seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:53:53 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/12, paleoartifact@......... writes: > You're right it was originally developed for a gravimeter; but recommended > by this Zollner for use in a seismometer. > Haven't found this Zollner persons first name. German design of 1869. Being > as their is almost zero on the web, it sounds like it had "problems" of some > sort. I'd think it would need a very strong boom to prevent bowing or > vibration; and a > strong support frame. Some of the gravimeters were made from fused silica. One problem is that the Zollner boom can oscillate by moving the whole boom sideways, as well as by rotating. I am not sure how you would set up the damping in practice. The garden-gate type seismometers do have one end of the boom firmly located by the flexure. The vertical single wire Wood-Andersons (horizontal sensing) of the 1920's, are > "sort-of" considered a variation. > I can't think why. W-As have an offset mass suspended by a taught vertical torsion wire. The torsional properties of the wire determine the sensitivity. For an itemised history see http://www.oge.or.at/Lecture_Seismometry.pdf Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/12, paleoartifact@......... writes:

You're right it was originally=20= developed for a gravimeter; but recommended by this Zollner for use in a sei= smometer.
Haven't found this Zollner persons first name. German design of 1869. Being=20= as their is almost zero on the web, it sounds like it had "problems" of some= sort.  I'd think it would need a very strong boom to prevent bowing or= vibration; and a
strong support frame. 


    Some of the gravimeters were made from fused silica. One=20= problem is that the Zollner boom can oscillate by moving the whole boom side= ways, as well as by rotating. I am not sure how you would set up the damping= in practice.
    The garden-gate type seismometers do have one end of the=20= boom firmly located by the flexure.

The vertical single wire Wood-Andersons (horizontal sensing) of the 1920's,=20= are

"sort-of" considered a variati= on.

       I can't think why. W-As have an offset=20= mass suspended by a taught vertical torsion wire. The torsional properties o= f the wire determine the sensitivity.

       For an itemised history see http://www.= oge.or.at/Lecture_Seismometry.pdf

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: seismic records From: Bob Hancock carpediem1@......... Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:21:28 -0700 You are in luck, living in Indiana, there is the PN (PEPP, IN, Princeton Earth Physics Program network of Indiana) network, including one station in Evansville, IN. You can reference this through Wilber II. I would also suggest that you download the GEE program from IRIS, at the following link: http://www.seis.sc.edu/gee/about.html The program is easy to use, but does not have the sophistication of WinQuake. It appears as an unfinished program to me. However, you can read SAC, PSN, and PSN datasets with no problems. You can also monitor in as close to real time as it gets any of seismic stations listed in their worldwide database. The documentation is a little thin, but as you use it, you will learn how it works. Another nice feature is a world map of seismic stations. I noticed there are several stations near your location including Wyandotte Cave, IN, part of the IU network. Many stations from the Transportable Array (TA) network are shown in the Western US. In a year or two, many of these stations will be moving to the Mid-West US, so you may have many more stations to chose from. Another network you might want to explore is NM (Cooperative New Madrid Seismic Network). They are not as close as your PN stations, but could give you another source of reference data. Bob Hancock On 7/12/08 1:21 PM, "Thomas Dick" wrote: > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: The Zollner suspension seismometer From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:16:30 -0600 Chris, Excellent point on the whole boom moving sideways; I'd not thought of that. Presumably thats probably the "vibratory/local source noise" aspect of it. Perhaps a partial limiting cure for that oscillation; might be having a strong eddy current dampening plate boom centered and dropping down abit underneath the boom. Think I'll make a rough quick oscillating model; just to get a much better impression of its aspects. It will likely be interesting. Take care, Meredith On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:53 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 2008/07/12, paleoartifact@......... writes: > > You're right it was originally developed for a gravimeter; but > recommended by this Zollner for use in a seismometer. > Haven't found this Zollner persons first name. German design of 1869. Being > as their is almost zero on the web, it sounds like it had "problems" of some > sort. I'd think it would need a very strong boom to prevent bowing or > vibration; and a > strong support frame. > > > > Some of the gravimeters were made from fused silica. One problem is > that the Zollner boom can oscillate by moving the whole boom sideways, as > well as by rotating. I am not sure how you would set up the damping in > practice. > The garden-gate type seismometers do have one end of the boom firmly > located by the flexure. > > The vertical single wire Wood-Andersons (horizontal sensing) of the 1920's, > are > > "sort-of" considered a variation. > > > I can't think why. W-As have an offset mass suspended by a taught > vertical torsion wire. The torsional properties of the wire determine the > sensitivity. > > For an itemised history see > http://www.oge.or.at/Lecture_Seismometry.pdf > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman
Chris,
 
Excellent point on the whole boom moving sideways; I'd not thought of that.  Presumably thats probably the "vibratory/local source noise"
aspect of it.  Perhaps a partial limiting cure for that oscillation; might be having a strong eddy current dampening plate boom centered
and dropping down abit underneath the boom.   
 
Think I'll make a rough quick oscillating model; just to get a much better impression of its aspects.  It will likely be interesting.
 
Take care, Meredith  
 


 
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 2:53 PM, <ChrisAtUpw@.......> wrote:
In a message dated 2008/07/12, paleoartifact@......... writes:

You're right it was originally developed for a gravimeter; but recommended by this Zollner for use in a seismometer.
Haven't found this Zollner persons first name. German design of 1869. Being as their is almost zero on the web, it sounds like it had "problems" of some sort.  I'd think it would need a very strong boom to prevent bowing or vibration; and a
strong support frame. 


    Some of the gravimeters were made from fused silica. One problem is that the Zollner boom can oscillate by moving the whole boom sideways, as well as by rotating. I am not sure how you would set up the damping in practice.
    The garden-gate type seismometers do have one end of the boom firmly located by the flexure.

The vertical single wire Wood-Andersons (horizontal sensing) of the 1920's, are

"sort-of" considered a variation.

       I can't think why. W-As have an offset mass suspended by a taught vertical torsion wire. The torsional properties of the wire determine the sensitivity.

       For an itemised history see http://www.oge.or.at/Lecture_Seismometry.pdf

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman

Subject: unsubscribe From: "Erich Kern" efkern@............. Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:08:48 -0700 please unsubscribe efkern@eathlink.net
 
please unsubscribe efkern@............=20
Subject: Re: Earthquake strength From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:19:54 +0000 Hi Chris. Then you have a broadband seismometer, rather then a low period one. A small local earthquake can have a frequancy up to 22Hz, if it is a small one (0.0 up to 3.5). If it is a bigger earthquake, it has higher frequancy responce. I see that in my data all the time.=20 Steinar Midtskogen Earthquake detection also depends on what type of rock layer your sensor is on. Old crust carries earthquakes better then a new one. In my area I can record earthquakes better that are north of me then earthquakes that are south of me. This is because of the curst, it is broken south of me and also contains a lot of magma in areas.=20 Did you record the ML3.6 earthquake in Belgium today ? http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Ddetail&id=3D92228 Regards. J=F3n Fr=EDmann. On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 00:00 -0400, ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > In a message dated 2008/07/10, jonfr@......... writes: >=20 > > Local earthquakes have higher frequency component then telesesmic > > earthquakes (more then 1500 km away). Due to that fact a 30 second > > sensor won't detect local earthquakes well or not at all.=20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Jon, >=20 > Sorry, but this is not correct. Our 20 second Lehmans detect > ALL frequencies from 0.05 Hz up to the limit of the low pass filter, > 5 Hz in our case. If you had a 10 Hz filter fitted, this would be your > limit. The response is flat with velocity between these limits. >=20 > For optimal=20 > > dection of local and regional earthquakes you need a sensor that is > > 1Hz, but geophones up to 4,5Hz also work quite well. But are not as > > senstive > > to smaller earthquakes, by best dection is ML0,5 (unchecked size) at > > 18 km. >=20 >=20 > Local quakes have components up to about 10 Hz, but may show > only small amplitude surface waves at long periods. You can extend the > range of a 4.5 Hz geophone down to about 0.5 Hz electronically. It > will then respond to all quakes with amplitudes above the local noise > levels. >=20 > Geophone responses are usually limited by local environmental > noise, not by electronic noise. They pick up everything that can be > detected within their and the amplifier's response range! Have a look > at the FFT plot of a local quake on your geophones? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Chris Chapman=20 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: seismic records From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:51:19 -0500 > You are in luck, living in Indiana, there is the PN (PEPP, IN, Princeton > Earth Physics Program network of Indiana) network, including one station > in > Evansville, IN. You can reference this through Wilber II. You opened new doors for me to explore with this comment. I downloaded a list of those stations now. The Illinois quakes in April don't show any data locally; the Princeton site which was not operating at the time. The Evansville and New Harmony site are not shown sites aren't listed.. > > I would also suggest that you download the GEE program from IRIS, at the > following link: I also got VASE. I have to absorb the operating instructions for this program.> > The program is easy to use, but does not have the sophistication of > WinQuake. It appears as an unfinished program to me. However, you can > read > SAC, PSN, and PSN datasets with no problems. I like Bob's Winquake utilities for converting to PSN You can also monitor in as close to real time as it gets any of seismic stations listed in their worldwide database. > This will help -- it is a start in a new direction; I have the USI site which is a part of the U. of St. Louis, as well another at University of Evansville and of course, Wyandotte Cave, IN and the IU network for actual quakes. > > Many stations from the Transportable Array (TA) network are shown in the > Western US. In a year or two, many of these stations will be moving to > the > Mid-West US, so you may have many more stations to chose from. > Hummmm > Another network you might want to explore is NM (Cooperative New Madrid > Seismic Network). I have broused there some; occasrionally, a small western Kentucky quake will show up on some of their units. They are not as close as your PN stations, but could give Thanks for your comments and the time it took to create them. Yours, Tom __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake strength From: Steinar Midtskogen steinar@............. Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:25:23 +0200 [Jón Frímann] > Did you record the ML3.6 earthquake in Belgium today ? > > http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=current&sub=detail&id=92228 3.6 at over 1100 km away seems to be about the limit of what I can record. I can't find it, though. Perhaps it would be recorded during the night when I have less local noise. The 6+ Taiwan earthquake a little later dominates the plot of the day. -- Steinar Midtskogen http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Timing Accuracy Within WinSDR From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:12:11 -0500 Since I raised the issue, I would like to put an end to it. I had several checks made on my coordinates. That wasn't an issue. Then, using the largest quake in the Illinois group in April, I acquired data from eight sites besides my own. I used WinQuake and only the records of the vertical instruments at each site. The sites ranged from 35 km to 173 km from the epicenter; all to the east of the epicenter. The educationally sponsored sites (using the tables in WinQuake) showed a variation of zero to 1.6 seconds deviation from the expected arrival of P. The other four which are PP sites had an average deviation of 5.3 seconds. I excluded one site which was off 77 seconds. So, my deviation of 3 seconds was better than average in this group and allows the rest of the deviation to be blamed on things like the bowl-shaped syncline that exists here and several known faults. Most interesting to me was that the most accurate educational site (where P arrived excatly as expected) was 90 km away from the epicenter and sits in a cave of limestone approximately of the same type as that found at the focus. Enough said! __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Diamond polishing carbide rods From: "David Saum" DSaum@............ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:53:55 -0400 I bought some carbide rods (1/8" x 1.5") from eBay that appeared to be polished, but under 30x magnification they were quite rough. But I was able to get a nice mirror polish on carbide rods with this set of diamond paste polish from eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/12-pcs-5gram-Diamond-polishing-lapping-paste-compound_W0QQitemZ180262758807QQcmdZ I started with the 10 micron polish and worked down to the 0.5 micron polish. Polish was applied to a paper towel, and a hand drill was used to rotate the rod against the towel for about 30 seconds for each polish. A black residue gives an indication that the polish is actually working. Under 30x magnification the polished rod shows a mirror finish with only a few isolated pits left. Since the diamond polish kit goes up to 40 microns, it may be possible to get rid of all the pits by using the full range of polishes or by longer polishing. I plan to use an 1/8"sapphire ball against two of the rods for an improved Lehman pivot. Dave __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Diamond polishing carbide rods From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:23:26 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/15, DSaum@............ writes: > I bought some carbide rods (1/8" x 1.5") from eBay that appeared to be > polished, but under 30x magnification they were quite rough. But I was able to > get a nice mirror polish on carbide rods with this set of diamond paste polish > from eBay > http://cgi.ebay.com/12-pcs-5gram-Diamond-polishing-lapping-paste-compound_W0Q > QitemZ180262758807QQcmdZ > > I started with the 10 micron polish and worked down to the 0.5 micron > polish. > > Polish was applied to a paper towel, and a hand drill was used to rotate the > rod against the towel for about 30 seconds for each polish. A black residue > gives an > indication that the polish is actually working. Hi Dave, This will NOT produce the optimum smoothness. A flexible backing material just follows the existing wavy contours. You need to use copper laps and work along the length to remove the ridges often left by machining. Bend about 1 /2" length of 0.040 thou thick U of copper around a mandrel / drill / the carbide rod and use the U against the carbide rod with diamond paste + oil. > I plan to use an 1/8"sapphire ball against two of the rods > for an improved Lehman pivot. I suggest that you either use crossed carbide rods with the vertical rod on the support post, or that you put the ball on the vertical support post. A ball rolling on a plane is considerably inferior to a plane rolling on a ball. A two rods rolling on a ball are likely to have a higher frictional loss than crossed rods. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/15, DSaum@............ writes:

I bought some carbide rods (1/8= " x 1.5") from eBay that appeared to be polished, but under 30x magnificatio= n they were quite rough. But I was able to get a nice mirror polish on carbi= de rods with this set of diamond paste polish from eBay
http://cgi.ebay.com/12-pcs-5gram-Diamond-polishing-lapping-paste-compound_W0= QQitemZ180262758807QQcmdZ

I started with the 10 micron polish and worked down to the 0.5 micron polish= ..

Polish was applied to a paper towel, and a hand drill was used to rotate the= rod against the towel for about 30 seconds for each polish.  A black r= esidue gives an
indication that the polish is actually working.


Hi Dave,

       This will NOT produce the optimum smoot= hness. A flexible backing material just follows the existing wavy contours.=20= You need to use copper laps and work along the length to remove the ridges o= ften left by machining. Bend about 1/2" length of 0.040 thou thick U of copp= er around a mandrel / drill / the carbide rod and use the U against the carb= ide rod with diamond paste + oil.


I plan to use an 1/8"sapphire b= all against two of the rods
for an improved Lehman pivot.


       I suggest that you either use crossed c= arbide rods with the vertical rod on the support post, or that you put the b= all on the vertical support post. A ball rolling on a plane is considerably=20= inferior to a plane rolling on a ball. A two rods rolling on a ball are like= ly to have a higher frictional loss than crossed rods.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: RE: Diamond polishing carbide rods From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:56:33 -0700 David, Thank you for the information on your diamond dust purchase. The purchase is a very good deal compared to my recent local purchase from Sun Diamond http://www.smg-diamond.com/ I purchased 3 syringes, 5gms each for about $3/gm. I also just purchased the 12 syringe kit. Globalization...I like it most times. I used the polishing method suggested by Chris Chapman, it works very well. Gary Lindgren -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of David Saum Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 5:54 AM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Diamond polishing carbide rods I bought some carbide rods (1/8" x 1.5") from eBay that appeared to be polished, but under 30x magnification they were quite rough. But I was able to get a nice mirror polish on carbide rods with this set of diamond paste polish from eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/12-pcs-5gram-Diamond-polishing-lapping-paste-compound_W0 QQitemZ180262758807QQcmdZ I started with the 10 micron polish and worked down to the 0.5 micron polish. Polish was applied to a paper towel, and a hand drill was used to rotate the rod against the towel for about 30 seconds for each polish. A black residue gives an indication that the polish is actually working. Under 30x magnification the polished rod shows a mirror finish with only a few isolated pits left. Since the diamond polish kit goes up to 40 microns, it may be possible to get rid of all the pits by using the full range of polishes or by longer polishing. I plan to use an 1/8"sapphire ball against two of the rods for an improved Lehman pivot. Dave __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Diamond polishing carbide rods From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:35:45 -0600 Hi Chris and all, Out of curiosity, today I did try a S-G pivot configuration where; two glued carbide flats were attached to the boom and they were oscillating on two frame fixed/glued ruby balls, to see if the setup would freely oscillate longer. The undampened oscillation time result was exactly the same (~within 1 minute) as when the the ruby balls were attached to the boom and pivoting on two carbide flats. Of course the above isn't near equitable to a quite different Lehman setup. It does make me wonder why a Lehman boom end flat that is pivoting on a mast fixed ball is significantly better? I think I can conprehend using a larger diameter ball as you have, and get measureably less friction. I hope I'am not putting you on the spot...(no pun intended)...you're usually right about everything. Take care, Meredith On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:23 AM, wrote: > > I plan to use an 1/8"sapphire ball against two of the rods > for an improved Lehman pivot. > > > > I suggest that you either use crossed carbide rods with the vertical > rod on the support post, or that you put the ball on the vertical support > post. A ball rolling on a plane is considerably inferior to a plane rolling > on a ball. A two rods rolling on a ball are likely to have a higher > frictional loss than crossed rods. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman
Hi Chris and all,
 
Out of curiosity, today I did try a S-G pivot configuration where;  two glued carbide flats were attached to the boom and they were
oscillating on two frame fixed/glued ruby balls, to see if the setup would freely oscillate longer.  The undampened oscillation time
result was exactly the same (~within 1 minute) as when the the ruby balls were attached to the boom and pivoting on two carbide flats.
 
Of course the above isn't near equitable to a quite different Lehman setup.  It does make me wonder why a Lehman boom end flat that
is pivoting on a mast fixed ball is significantly better?   I think I can conprehend using a larger diameter ball as you have, and get
measureably less friction.  I hope I'am not putting you on the spot...(no pun intended)...you're usually right about everything.  
 
Take care, Meredith


 
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:23 AM, <ChrisAtUpw@.......> wrote:

I plan to use an 1/8"sapphire ball against two of the rods
for an improved Lehman pivot.


       I suggest that you either use crossed carbide rods with the vertical rod on the support post, or that you put the ball on the vertical support post. A ball rolling on a plane is considerably inferior to a plane rolling on a ball. A two rods rolling on a ball are likely to have a higher frictional loss than crossed rods.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman

Subject: From: George Bush ke6pxp@....... Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:05:27 -0700 Hi- I am a retired Scientist from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, and I just received the following from a colleague. I thought it would be of interest to those of us who are interested in detection and classification of quakes: Scientists have found a way to distinguish seismic waves. Researchers have devised a technology that can distinguish mine collapses from other seismic activity. Using the large seismic disturbance associated with a Utah mine collapse last August, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory scientists and colleagues from the Berkeley Seismological Laboratory at the University of California, Berkeley applied a method developed to detect underground nuclear weapons tests to quickly examine the seismic recordings of the event, and determine whether that source was most likely from a collapse. The collapse of the Crandall Canyon mine in Utah registered as a 3.9 magnitude event. Using a full seismic waveform matching technique, the team of researchers have devised a method to better differentiate underground nuclear tests from earthquakes, mine collapses, mine blasts and other events that generate seismic waves. The new research appears in the July 11 edition of the journal Science. For more information, see https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/news_releases/2008/NR-08-07-03.html George Bush Sea Ranch, CA, USA 38.73775N, 123.48882W Subject: The Oregon earthquakes From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:17:33 +0000 Hi all I was going to write and warn about upcoming big earthquake near the cost of Oregon, soon as I had finish eating. But I see it might already have happend. However, I am expecting more big earthquakes there in next few hours and days. My size estimate is earthquakes no less then Mw6.0 or bigger. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: The Oregon earthquakes From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:49:02 -0700 Jon, Tell us more about your predictions. What have you been seeing? Gary -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of J=F3n Fr=EDmann Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 4:18 PM To: PSN-Postlist Subject: The Oregon earthquakes Hi all I was going to write and warn about upcoming big earthquake near the cost of Oregon, soon as I had finish eating. But I see it might already have happend. However, I am expecting more big earthquakes there in next few hours and days. My size estimate is earthquakes no less then Mw6.0 or bigger. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: The Oregon earthquakes From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:01:51 +0000 Hi Gary I have been experimenting with an idea on how to predict earthquakes when there is a swarm ongoing. It is harder to predict when there are no clues. Given the current pattern of earthquakes. The area where the earthquakes are happening is due for a big earthquake. It appears that the earthquakes that are happening there are building up tension both south and north (about) of there current location. It is hard to tell when a big earthquake might happen in that area. But given the clues. I am estimation the earliest in the next 48 hours, at the latest, sometimes in the next 2 years time. Regards. J=F3n Fr=EDmann. On Thu, 2008-07-17 at 16:49 -0700, Gary Lindgren wrote: > Jon, > Tell us more about your predictions. What have you been seeing? > Gary >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On > Behalf Of J=F3n Fr=EDmann > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 4:18 PM > To: PSN-Postlist > Subject: The Oregon earthquakes >=20 > Hi all >=20 > I was going to write and warn about upcoming big earthquake near the > cost of Oregon, soon as I had finish eating. But I see it might already > have happend. However, I am expecting more big earthquakes there in next > few hours and days. My size estimate is earthquakes no less then Mw6.0 > or bigger. >=20 > Regards. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: The Oregon earthquakes From: Bob Hancock carpediem1@......... Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:35:09 -0700 Jon - The two Oregon events occurred on the North side of the Blanco Fracture Zon= e (Blanco Transform), part of the Mendocino Triple Junction. It is a highly seismically active area already noted for frequent earthquakes. A search o= f USGS records for the last 30 days revealed 17 events that preceded these tw= o events. =20 In April 2008, there was a swarm offshore of Oregon, and north of the Blanc= o Fracture Zone. This swarm had over 700 events. Following is a link to a USGS report on the previous swarm: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/eqinthenews/2008/offshore_oregon/ Bob Hancock On 7/17/08 4:17 PM, "J=F3n Fr=EDmann" wrote: > Hi all >=20 > I was going to write and warn about upcoming big earthquake near the > cost of Oregon, soon as I had finish eating. But I see it might already > have happend. However, I am expecting more big earthquakes there in next > few hours and days. My size estimate is earthquakes no less then Mw6.0 > or bigger. >=20 > Regards. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: The Oregon earthquakes From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 03:55:57 +0000 Hi Bob I did keep that in mind when I did try to predict the upcoming earthquakes in that area. It has been higly active for past 8 months or so, so something else in the nearby fault lines must give soon in my opinion. For me it is a question about if the idea that I have for a prediction model works or not. Regards. J=F3n Fr=EDmann. On Thu, 2008-07-17 at 18:35 -0700, Bob Hancock wrote: > Jon - >=20 > The two Oregon events occurred on the North side of the Blanco Fracture Z= one > (Blanco Transform), part of the Mendocino Triple Junction. It is a highl= y > seismically active area already noted for frequent earthquakes. A search= of > USGS records for the last 30 days revealed 17 events that preceded these = two > events. =20 >=20 > In April 2008, there was a swarm offshore of Oregon, and north of the Bla= nco > Fracture Zone. This swarm had over 700 events. Following is a link to a > USGS report on the previous swarm: >=20 > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/eqinthenews/2008/offshore_oregon/ >=20 > Bob Hancock >=20 >=20 > On 7/17/08 4:17 PM, "J=F3n Fr=EDmann" wrote: >=20 > > Hi all > >=20 > > I was going to write and warn about upcoming big earthquake near the > > cost of Oregon, soon as I had finish eating. But I see it might already > > have happend. However, I am expecting more big earthquakes there in nex= t > > few hours and days. My size estimate is earthquakes no less then Mw6.0 > > or bigger. > >=20 > > Regards. >=20 >=20 > __________________________________________________________ >=20 > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >=20 > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with=20 > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Need Email address for upload. From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:57:21 -0400 Hello Folks, I am back online with a Lehman type sensor. But darned if I can remember the email address to upload an event. Getting old. Can someone please help with this? Thank you Paul Cianciolo W1VLF Rescue Electronics Surplus Please visit our website: http://www.rescueelectronics.com
Hello=20 Folks,
 
I am back online = with a Lehman=20 type sensor.
But darned if I can = remember=20 the email address to upload an event.
 
Getting=20 old.
Can someone please = help with=20 this?
 
Thank = you

Paul Cianciolo = W1VLF
Rescue=20 Electronics Surplus

Please visit our website:
http://www.rescueelectronics.com

 
Subject: Re: Need Email address for upload. From: ian ian@........... Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:09:10 +0100 event@.............. Paul Cianciolo wrote: > Hello Folks, > > I am back online with a Lehman type sensor. > But darned if I can remember the email address to upload an event. > > Getting old. > Can someone please help with this? > > Thank you > > */Paul Cianciolo W1VLF/ > */Rescue Electronics Surplus/ > > Please visit our website: > http://www.rescueelectronics.com > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Need Email address for upload. From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:13:55 -0400 Thank you Ian!! I am going to give it a try -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of ian Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:09 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Need Email address for upload. event@.............. Paul Cianciolo wrote: > Hello Folks, > > I am back online with a Lehman type sensor. > But darned if I can remember the email address to upload an event. > > Getting old. > Can someone please help with this? > > Thank you > > */Paul Cianciolo W1VLF/ > */Rescue Electronics Surplus/ > > Please visit our website: > http://www.rescueelectronics.com > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Carbide machine inserts used for ball surface flats From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 00:17:15 -0600 Hi all, If you're thinking of using machine carbide inserts as a flat surface for your ball pivot Lehman or S-G ball horizontal design, its probably going to be (so-so) ~difficult to find UNCOATED inserts and; flat inserts without the predominate center holes that the majority of shapes usually have. Almost all newer manufactured inserts have various coatings thereon....one is kind of forced to hunt for older "surplus" uncoated inserts. The prices of new inserts usually is > $10.00 up, each. Older (> 20 years) uncoated inserts can be ~ > $2-3 or so each. Early (~ > 1970's era ) uncoated type carbide inserts aren't listed in the newer offerings amongst the current web suppliers it seems. Even finding a old "speculation" insert like on E-Bay can be frought with the problem that they don't often say if they are coated with whatever, or, are uncoated. Coatings can be a wide variety of material like tin, etc. Photographs usually don't give a straight picture of whether they are coated or not; a "shiny" reflective insert could still be coated with something. If the insert isn't pictured black; its probably coated. Most E-Bay sellers of course don't know or care. Of course, one could diamond grind/lap off the coating..... On E-Bay one seller that "often" does list whether they are coated or not; and thats "hemlytool". Be aware that "new" can also be interpreted as old dated unused (surplus) stock. Often the quanity they sell is a turn-off; especially if you only need one or two. hemlytool has alot of inserts up for auction and afew that are uncoated and without centered holes. Most are square but they can be triangular, or diamond shaped also. The surface of the insert may also need diamond lapping. You may also have to use the unmarked side as the marked side could be etched or laser or whatever marked; which could interfere with the ball contact. The brand name "Valenite" seems to pop up quite often with older dated uncoated inserts on E-Bay. Take care, Meredith Lamb
Hi all,
 
If you're thinking of using machine carbide inserts as a flat surface for your ball pivot Lehman or S-G ball horizontal design, its probably
going to be (so-so) ~difficult to find UNCOATED inserts and; flat inserts without the predominate center holes that the majority of shapes usually have.
Almost all newer manufactured inserts have various coatings thereon....one is kind of forced to hunt for older "surplus" uncoated inserts.
 
The prices of new inserts usually is > $10.00 up, each.  Older (> 20 years) uncoated inserts can be ~ > $2-3 or so each.
 
Early (~ > 1970's era ) uncoated type carbide inserts aren't listed in the newer offerings amongst the current web suppliers it seems.  Even finding
a old "speculation" insert like on E-Bay can be frought with the problem that they don't often say if they are coated with whatever, or, are
uncoated.  Coatings can be a wide variety of material like tin, etc.  Photographs usually don't give a straight picture of whether they
are coated or not; a "shiny" reflective insert could still be coated with something.  If the insert isn't pictured black; its probably coated.  Most E-Bay
sellers of course don't know or care.  Of course, one could diamond grind/lap off the coating.....
 
On E-Bay one seller that "often" does list whether they are coated or not; and thats "hemlytool".  Be aware that "new" can also be
interpreted as old dated unused (surplus) stock.  Often the quanity they sell is a turn-off; especially if you only need one or two. hemlytool has alot
of inserts up for auction and afew that are uncoated and without centered holes.  Most are square but they can be triangular, or diamond shaped also.
 
The surface of the insert may also need diamond lapping.  You may also have to use the unmarked side as the marked side could be
etched or laser or whatever marked; which could interfere with the ball contact.
 
The brand name "Valenite" seems to pop up quite often with older dated uncoated inserts on E-Bay.
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb
 
 
 
 
 
 
Subject: Re: Carbide machine inserts used for ball surface flats From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:30:49 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/20, paleoartifact@......... writes: > Almost all newer manufactured inserts have various coatings thereon....one > is kind of forced to hunt for older "surplus" uncoated inserts. > > The prices of new inserts usually is > $10.00 up, each. Older (> 20 years) > uncoated inserts can be ~ > $2-3 or so each. Hi Meredith, I can still buy the small 0.3" a side uncoated triangular inserts new for less than $10 from a reputable industrial supplier. > Early (~ > 1970's era ) uncoated type carbide inserts aren't listed in the > newer offerings amongst the current web suppliers it seems. There are also several other sources of carbide flats. You can also use the tool steel square section bars used for lathes. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/20, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Almost all newer manufactured i= nserts have various coatings thereon....one is kind of forced to hunt for ol= der "surplus" uncoated inserts.

The prices of new inserts usually is > $10.00 up, each.  Older (>= 20 years) uncoated inserts can be ~ > $2-3 or so each.

Hi Meredith,

       I can still buy the small 0.3" a side u= ncoated triangular inserts new for less than $10 from a reputable industrial= supplier.


Early (~ > 1970's era ) unc= oated type carbide inserts aren't listed in the newer offerings amongst the=20= current web suppliers it seems.


       There are also several other sources of= carbide flats. You can also use the tool steel square section bars used for= lathes.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Carbide machine inserts used for ball surface flats From: Charles Patton charles.r.patton@........ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:01:38 -0700 There used to be replacement inserts for (Sandvik?) import brand paint scrapers and they were made of uncoated carbide. They were triangles about 1 to 1 1/4 inches on a side. I bought some for a few dollars at my local ACE hardware store. Doing a quick Google search found a whole bunch of similar items at: http://www.thefind.com/hardware/info-carbide-scraper-blade The ones similar to what I remember are in the middle of the page listed as an Allway CB10 for $2.83 each. Regards, Charles R. Patton meredith lamb wrote: > Hi all, > > If you're thinking of using machine carbide inserts as a flat surface > for your ball pivot Lehman or S-G ball horizontal design, its probably > going to be (so-so) ~difficult to find UNCOATED inserts and; flat > inserts without the predominate center holes that the majority of shapes > usually have. > Almost all newer manufactured inserts have various coatings > thereon....one is kind of forced to hunt for older "surplus" uncoated > inserts. > > The prices of new inserts usually is > $10.00 up, each. Older (> 20 > years) uncoated inserts can be ~ > $2-3 or so each. > > Early (~ > 1970's era ) uncoated type carbide inserts aren't listed in > the newer offerings amongst the current web suppliers it seems. Even > finding > a old "speculation" insert like on E-Bay can be frought with the problem > that they don't often say if they are coated with whatever, or, are > uncoated. Coatings can be a wide variety of material like tin, etc. > Photographs usually don't give a straight picture of whether they > are coated or not; a "shiny" reflective insert could still be coated > with something. If the insert isn't pictured black; its probably > coated. Most E-Bay > sellers of course don't know or care. Of course, one could diamond > grind/lap off the coating..... > > On E-Bay one seller that "often" does list whether they are coated or > not; and thats "hemlytool". Be aware that "new" can also be > interpreted as old dated unused (surplus) stock. Often the quanity they > sell is a turn-off; especially if you only need one or two. hemlytool > has alot > of inserts up for auction and afew that are uncoated and without > centered holes. Most are square but they can be triangular, or diamond > shaped also. > > The surface of the insert may also need diamond lapping. You may also > have to use the unmarked side as the marked side could be > etched or laser or whatever marked; which could interfere with the ball > contact. > > The brand name "Valenite" seems to pop up quite often with older dated > uncoated inserts on E-Bay. > > Take care, Meredith Lamb > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Carbide machine inserts used for ball surface flats From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:18:10 -0600 Hi Chris and Charles, Many thanks for the references. Hmmm....the Ace Hardware triangle looks quite cheaply "available" so too speak for the U.S.A. participants...great! Am not sure it could be useful on Chris's Lehman end of boom placement flat surface recommendation, unless its perhaps placement offset to begin with thereon? On the other hand, the hole could be used as a rough/temporary placement holding "ball lock position" now and then for both a Lehman and a simple pendulum dual ball S-G. The Ace Hardware rectangular carbide strips "look" inviting for a possible test S-G spaced dual ball setup surface. I note Ace Hardware now also carrys the magically effective Devcon Plastic Welder two part glue; and additionally a new (untested) steel/ceramic glue too. The plastic welder stuff seems to hold about everything excellent...including ruby balls to a metal surface....let alone a variety of home repairs I've done. Its way far better than the average American "junkque" glues. Take care, Meredith On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Charles Patton wrote: > There used to be replacement inserts for (Sandvik?) import brand paint > scrapers and they were made of uncoated carbide. They were triangles about > 1 to 1 1/4 inches on a side. I bought some for a few dollars at my local > ACE hardware store. Doing a quick Google search found a whole bunch of > similar items at: > http://www.thefind.com/hardware/info-carbide-scraper-blade > The ones similar to what I remember are in the middle of the page listed as > an Allway CB10 for $2.83 each. > Regards, > Charles R. Patton > > > >
Hi Chris and Charles,
 
Many thanks for the references. 
 
Hmmm....the Ace Hardware triangle looks quite cheaply "available" so too speak for the U.S.A. participants...great!
Am not sure it could be useful on Chris's Lehman end of boom placement flat surface recommendation, unless its perhaps placement offset to begin
with thereon?  On the other hand, the hole could be used as a rough/temporary placement holding "ball lock position" now and then for both
a Lehman and a simple pendulum dual ball S-G.
 
The Ace Hardware rectangular carbide strips "look" inviting for a possible test S-G spaced dual ball setup surface.
 
I note Ace Hardware now also carrys the magically effective Devcon Plastic Welder two part glue; and additionally
a new (untested) steel/ceramic glue too.  The plastic welder stuff seems to hold about everything excellent...including ruby balls to
a metal surface....let alone a variety of home repairs I've done.  Its way far better than the average American "junkque" glues.
 
Take care, Meredith 
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Charles Patton <charles.r.patton@........> wrote:
There used to be replacement inserts for (Sandvik?) import brand paint scrapers and they were made of uncoated carbide.  They were triangles about 1 to 1 1/4 inches on a side.  I bought some for a few dollars at my local ACE hardware store. Doing a quick Google search found a whole bunch of similar items at:
http://www.thefind.com/hardware/info-carbide-scraper-blade
The ones similar to what I remember are in the middle of the page listed as an Allway CB10 for $2.83 each.
Regards,
Charles R. Patton


 
Subject: Re: Carbide machine inserts and alternative flats From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:51:00 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/20, paleoartifact@......... writes: > Many thanks for the references. Hi Meredith, > Hmmm....the Ace Hardware triangle looks quite cheaply "available" so too > speak for the U.S.A. participants...great! > Am not sure it could be useful on Chris's Lehman end of boom placement flat > surface recommendation, unless its perhaps placement offset to begin > with thereon? Not sure what you mean? Have you checked it's surface finish? Check for Sandvik tool tips? Let me suggest another source. I am currently using a SS scalpel blade, 16 thou thick for the flat plate, glued to the flat turned end of the 12mm Al rod arm with Acrylic adhesive. I buy the large 'Skin Graft' blades ~$1 each, 50 mm x 15 mm, and cut them into four strips with a carbide disk. These are hardened and tempered SS with a mirror finish. Use 3/8" to 1/2" OD SS balls. These should easily carry the high contact stress. You can also use the 1/4" square tool steel rods for making lathe tools. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/20, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Many thanks for the references.=  


Hi Meredith,

Hmmm....the Ace Hardware triang= le looks quite cheaply "available" so too speak for the U.S.A. participants.= ...great!
Am not sure it could be useful on Chris's Lehman end of boom placement flat=20= surface recommendation, unless its perhaps placement offset to begin
with thereon?


       Not sure what you mean?

       Have you checked it's surface finish?
       Check for Sandvik tool tips?

       Let me suggest another source. I am cur= rently using a SS scalpel blade, 16 thou thick for the flat plate, glued to=20= the flat turned end of the 12mm Al rod arm with Acrylic adhesive. I buy the=20= large 'Skin Graft' blades ~$1 each, 50 mm x 15 mm, and cut them into four st= rips with a carbide disk. These are hardened and tempered SS with a mirror f= inish. Use 3/8" to 1/2" OD SS balls. These should easily carry the high cont= act stress.

       You can also use the 1/4" square tool s= teel rods for making lathe tools.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Carbide machine inserts and alternative flats From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:55:00 -0600 Hi Chris, The Ace hardware triangle carbide with the hole would have to be placed on the end of the boom so its hole is not centered thereon; but use the ball placement on a surrounding carbide flat area. No; I've not checked The Ace Hardware carbide insert/tip surface finish. But I will be quite curious enough to check eventually. Its likely available internationally of course under other hardware store names. I see what you mean by Sandvic brand tool tips....the british word "tips" stands for the same carbide insert. I understand they are quite good. There is ~ some 7000 + varities of tips/carbide inserts with alot of brand names, and probably thousands no longer being made. Thus far.....I only see one U.S.A., distributor selling stainless steel skin graft blades...but they sell only by a box of 10 for $60.00. Others want to dole out requested quotes...a waste of time too me. There is other international sellers. One could web find all kinds of stainless steel scapels cheap however. I've nothing against the ss skin graft blade or ss scapel; nor have I seen or tried one as a pivot surface....maybe someday....which would be interesting to crudely compare to carbide flats and ruby ball friction S-G results. Glad you mentioned their mirror finish, I didn't know that before. I've not tried ss balls yet either...another project. Take care, Meredith On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 1:51 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 2008/07/20, paleoartifact@......... writes: > > Many thanks for the references. > > > > Hi Meredith, > > Hmmm....the Ace Hardware triangle looks quite cheaply "available" so too > speak for the U.S.A. participants...great! > Am not sure it could be useful on Chris's Lehman end of boom placement flat > surface recommendation, unless its perhaps placement offset to begin > with thereon? > > > > Not sure what you mean? > > Have you checked it's surface finish? > > Check for Sandvik tool tips? > > Let me suggest another source. I am currently using a SS scalpel > blade, 16 thou thick for the flat plate, glued to the flat turned end of the > 12mm Al rod arm with Acrylic adhesive. I buy the large 'Skin Graft' blades > ~$1 each, 50 mm x 15 mm, and cut them into four strips with a carbide disk. > These are hardened and tempered SS with a mirror finish. Use 3/8" to 1/2" OD > SS balls. These should easily carry the high contact stress. > > You can also use the 1/4" square tool steel rods for making lathe > tools. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman
Hi Chris,
 
The Ace hardware triangle carbide with the hole would have to be placed on the end of the boom so
its hole is not centered thereon; but use the ball placement on a surrounding carbide flat area.  
 
No; I've not checked The Ace Hardware carbide insert/tip surface finish.  But I will be quite curious enough to check eventually.
Its likely available internationally of course under other hardware store names.
 
I see what you mean by Sandvic brand tool tips....the british word "tips" stands for the same carbide insert.
I understand they are quite good.  There is ~ some 7000 + varities of tips/carbide inserts with alot of brand names, and
probably thousands no longer being made.
 
Thus far.....I only see one U.S.A., distributor selling stainless steel skin graft blades...but they sell only by
a box of 10 for $60.00.  Others want to dole out requested quotes...a waste of time too me.  There is other
international sellers.  One could web find all kinds of stainless steel scapels cheap however.  I've nothing against the
ss skin graft blade or ss scapel; nor have I seen or tried one as a pivot surface....maybe someday....which would
be interesting to crudely compare to carbide flats and ruby ball friction S-G results.  Glad you mentioned their mirror finish, I
didn't know that before.  
 
I've not tried ss balls yet either...another project.
 
Take care, Meredith
 

 
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 1:51 PM, <ChrisAtUpw@.......> wrote:
In a message dated 2008/07/20, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Many thanks for the references. 


Hi Meredith,

Hmmm....the Ace Hardware triangle looks quite cheaply "available" so too speak for the U.S.A. participants...great!
Am not sure it could be useful on Chris's Lehman end of boom placement flat surface recommendation, unless its perhaps placement offset to begin
with thereon?


       Not sure what you mean?

       Have you checked it's surface finish?

       Check for Sandvik tool tips?

       Let me suggest another source. I am currently using a SS scalpel blade, 16 thou thick for the flat plate, glued to the flat turned end of the 12mm Al rod arm with Acrylic adhesive. I buy the large 'Skin Graft' blades ~$1 each, 50 mm x 15 mm, and cut them into four strips with a carbide disk. These are hardened and tempered SS with a mirror finish. Use 3/8" to 1/2" OD SS balls. These should easily carry the high contact stress.

       You can also use the 1/4" square tool steel rods for making lathe tools.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman

Subject: Re: Carbide machine inserts and alternative flats From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:11:39 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/21, paleoartifact@......... writes: > Thus far..... I only see one U.S.A., distributor selling stainless steel > skin graft blades... but they sell only by a box of 10 for $60.00. Others want > to dole out requested quotes... a waste of time too me. There are other > international sellers. One could web find all kinds of stainless steel scapels > cheap however. Hi Meredith, That is an idiotic price. They are 'taking you for a ride' ! ! These are Swann-Morton Skin Graft Blades SG3. They cost 90c each sold singly, or $16.20 for a pack of 20. Check for Swann-Morton? Regards, Chris In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/21, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Thus far..... I only see one U.= S.A., distributor selling stainless steel skin graft blades... but they sell= only by a box of 10 for $60.00.  Others want to dole out requested quo= tes... a waste of time too me. There are other international sellers. =20= One could web find all kinds of stainless steel scapels cheap however.

Hi Meredith,

       That is an idiotic price. They are 'tak= ing you for a ride'  ! !

       These are Swann-Morton Skin Graft Blade= s SG3. They cost 90c each sold singly, or $16.20 for a pack of 20.

       Check for Swann-Morton?

       Regards,

       Chris
Subject: Amaseis A/D Converter From: JAMES RIDOUT jamesridout@.............. Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:32:03 +0100 (BST) Hi All, Im looking to go over to computer recording for my seismograph.(from chart recorder). Does anyone have any (proved) homemade circuits that will work with Amaseis or similar. I am running on a budget, and would like to go for perhaps a 16 bit single chip type. Basicly as low cost and simple as possable (I like low cost & simple)!!!. Any help or info would be greatly appreciated. James
Hi All,
         Im looking to go over to computer recording for my seismograph.(from chart recorder).
Does anyone have any (proved) homemade circuits that will work with Amaseis or similar.
  I am running on a budget, and would like to go for perhaps a 16 bit single chip type.
 Basicly as low cost and simple as possable (I like low cost & simple)!!!.
   Any help or info would be greatly appreciated.
                    James
Subject: upload utility for AMASEIS? From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:26:15 -0400 Hello Folks, Now that my horizontal sensor is up pretty much 24 hours a day, I was wondering if there is an upload to the web utility built in? My hope is to upload the helicorder display once every hour or so. I did this a year ago using Snagit screen capture software, but that captures the active screen and I use the computer for several other operations. The local network upload utility I found but nothing for web publishing. Just wondering Thank you Paul Cianciolo W1VLF Rescue Electronics Surplus Please visit our website: http://www.rescueelectronics.com
Hello=20 Folks,
 
Now that my = horizontal sensor=20 is up pretty much 24 hours a day, I was wondering if there is an upload = to the=20 web utility built in?
 
My hope is to = upload the=20 helicorder display once every hour or so.
I did this a year = ago using=20 Snagit screen capture software, but that captures the active screen and = I use=20 the computer for several other operations.
 
The local network=20 upload utility I found but nothing for web = publishing.
 
Just=20 wondering
Thank = you
 

Paul Cianciolo = W1VLF
Rescue=20 Electronics Surplus

Please visit our website:
http://www.rescueelectronics.com

 
Subject: Re: upload utility for AMASEIS? From: "Robert McClure" bobmcclure90@......... Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:17:27 -0400 Hi Paul, You will find what you need at: http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/as1/index.html Bob On 7/21/08, Paul Cianciolo wrote: > Hello Folks, > > Now that my horizontal sensor is up pretty much 24 hours a day, I was > wondering if there is an upload to the web utility built in? > > My hope is to upload the helicorder display once every hour or so. > I did this a year ago using Snagit screen capture software, but that > captures the active screen and I use the computer for several other > operations. > > The local network upload utility I found but nothing for web publishing. > > Just wondering > Thank you > > Paul Cianciolo W1VLF > Rescue Electronics Surplus > > Please visit our website: > http://www.rescueelectronics.com > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Amaseis A/D Converter From: "Robert McClure" bobmcclure90@......... Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:25:16 -0400 Hi James, Please explain what is you want. Is it an amplifier. Is it an A/D converter? Or both? What is the signal level that drives your chart recorder? Bob On 7/21/08, JAMES RIDOUT wrote: > Hi All, > Im looking to go over to computer recording for my > seismograph.(from chart recorder). > Does anyone have any (proved) homemade circuits that will work with > Amaseis or similar. > I am running on a budget, and would like to go for perhaps a 16 bit > single chip type. > Basicly as low cost and simple as possable (I like low cost & simple)!!!. > Any help or info would be greatly appreciated. > James > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: upload utility for AMASEIS? From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:37:25 -0700 Paul, If you set up your computer in dual-monitor mode, then you could use one screen for AmaSeis and the other for other applications. With this setup, you can have SnagIt capture the AmaSeis helicorder screen. I haven't tried it with a dual-monitor configuration, but you might be able to get the MWSnap option to work, thus saving the $30 fee for SnagIt. See: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/as1/#snagit Cheers, John At 02:26 PM 7/21/2008, you wrote: >Hello Folks, > >Now that my horizontal sensor is up pretty much 24 hours a day, I >was wondering if there is an upload to the web utility built in? > >My hope is to upload the helicorder display once every hour or so. >I did this a year ago using Snagit screen capture software, but that >captures the active screen and I use the computer for several other operations. > >The local network upload utility I found but nothing for web publishing. > >Just wondering >Thank you > > >Paul Cianciolo W1VLF >Rescue Electronics Surplus > >Please visit our website: >http://www.rescueelectronics.com > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Japan 6.8 From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:11:50 -0400 I am watching this build on AMAseis right now. This is always thrill for me to watch me one roll into CT Paul Cianciolo W1VLF Rescue Electronics Surplus Please visit our website: http://www.rescueelectronics.com
I am watching this = build on=20 AMAseis right now.
This is always = thrill for me to=20 watch me one roll into CT
 
 

Paul Cianciolo = W1VLF
Rescue=20 Electronics Surplus

Please visit our website:
http://www.rescueelectronics.com

 
Subject: For Sale: Webtronics 4-Channel Amplifier/Filter and A/D serial board in metal enclosure From: "Dale Hardin" ks4ns@......... Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:55:30 -0500 This unit has the PSN-SERIAL V3 16-bit serial output A/D board, the PSN-ADC-EQUAMP 4-channel amp/filter board; all in the nice metal = enclosure. Wall power supply and valid WinSDR v 4.1.9 license included. The = amp/filter board has 12Hz LP and 60 sec HP filter. Input impedance 10k. Gain set = to 200. New cost including shipping and handling was $423.00 and was = purchased on 6/18/2008. In like new condition for $323.00 to anywhere in USA. = Paypal only. Contact off list at ks4ns@.......... Dale Hardin =20 =20

This unit has the PSN-SERIAL V3 16-bit serial output = A/D board, the PSN-ADC-EQUAMP 4-channel = amp/filter board; all in the nice metal enclosure.  Wall power supply and valid = WinSDR v 4.1.9 license included.  The amp/filter board has 12Hz LP and 60 = sec HP filter.  Input impedance 10k.  Gain set to 200.  New cost including shipping and handling was $423.00 and was purchased on = 6/18/2008.  In like new condition for $323.00 to anywhere in USA.  Paypal only.  Contact off list at ks4ns@..........  Dale Hardin

 

 

Subject: Re: Updates From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:40:12 +1000 Barry
          I tried to email you directly but it keeps getting bounced
so jst sending to u via PSN list
sorry to evetryone else    beyond my control   :)

cheers
Dave N

Thanks Barry,
good to hear from you mods all done :)
cheers
Dave N


At 07:41 PM 7/22/2008 -0700, you wrote:
Dave
I have some changes:
Barry Lotz
barry_lotz@.............
grass valley
california
lat/long 39.218n 121.081w
Subject: calibrating Lehmans From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:08:23 -0500 Wasn't there an article on calibrating Lehman-type seismometers usingWinQuake and a small weight hitting the mass? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: calibrating Lehmans From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 01:42:32 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/26, dickthomas01@............. writes: > Wasn't there an article on calibrating Lehman-type seismometers > usingWinQuake and a small weight hitting the mass? Hi Tom, There was an article which used a paper clip and a 90 degree V of cotton thread to apply a known small force to the arm. You applied a match to burn the thread and release it. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/26, dickthomas01@............. writes:

Wasn't there an article on cali= brating Lehman-type seismometers
usingWinQuake and a small weight hitting the mass?


Hi Tom,

       There was an article which used a paper= clip and a 90 degree V of cotton thread to apply a known small force to the= arm. You applied a match to burn the thread and release it.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Digest from 07/25/2008 00:01:49 From: "Randy" rpratt@............. Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:35:08 -0500 There is an impulse calibration procedure in Section 4.5.1 of the Manual on Seismological Observatory Practice at this link. Also see Bob McClures web pages. http://www.seismo.com/msop/msop79/msop.html Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 02:00 Subject: Digest from 07/25/2008 00:01:49 > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 1 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: calibrating Lehmans > From: "Thomas Dick" > Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:08:23 -0500 > > Wasn't there an article on calibrating Lehman-type seismometers > usingWinQuake and a small weight hitting the mass? > > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 2 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: calibrating Lehmans > From: ChrisAtUpw@....... > Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 01:42:32 EDT > > > --part1_ce0.338ab4aa.35bc1348_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 2008/07/26, dickthomas01@............. writes: > > > Wasn't there an article on calibrating Lehman-type seismometers > > usingWinQuake and a small weight hitting the mass? > > Hi Tom, > > There was an article which used a paper clip and a 90 degree V of > cotton thread to apply a known small force to the arm. You applied a match to burn > the thread and release it. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > > --part1_ce0.338ab4aa.35bc1348_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > In a me= > ssage dated 2008/07/26, dickthomas01@............. writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Wasn't there an article on cali= > brating Lehman-type seismometers
> usingWinQuake and a small weight hitting the mass?

>
> Hi Tom,
>
>        There was an article which used a paper= > clip and a 90 degree V of cotton thread to apply a known small force to the= > arm. You applied a match to burn the thread and release it.
>
>        Regards,
>
>        Chris Chapman
> > --part1_ce0.338ab4aa.35bc1348_boundary-- > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-DIGEST-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: calibrating Lehmans From: "Dale Hardy" photon1@........... Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:28:41 +1000 Thomas, try these Dale Bob Barns' article http://www.seismicnet.com/calibrate.html Erhard Wielandt article http://jclahr.com/science/psn/wielandt/man2001.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Dick" To: Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 12:08 PM Subject: calibrating Lehmans > Wasn't there an article on calibrating Lehman-type seismometers > usingWinQuake and a small weight hitting the mass? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: calibrating Lehmans From: "Robert McClure" bobmcclure90@......... Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:13:11 -0400 See Bob McClure's page at http://bobmcclure90.googlepages.com/calibration On 7/26/08, Dale Hardy wrote: > Thomas, try these > Dale > > Bob Barns' article > http://www.seismicnet.com/calibrate.html > > Erhard Wielandt article > > http://jclahr.com/science/psn/wielandt/man2001.html > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Dick" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 12:08 PM > Subject: calibrating Lehmans > > >> Wasn't there an article on calibrating Lehman-type seismometers >> usingWinQuake and a small weight hitting the mass? > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Amaseis From: christopher.marshall@....... Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:00:41 +0000 Greetings, First, I'll apologize for this posting since I am sure it comes up repeatedly. I searched the archives but couldn't find anything that answered my problem. I have a Lehmann connected via Larry Cochrane's amplifier filter board to a DATAQ 194RS A/D input. With everything set up, I get a good tracing on the DATAQ data acquisition module, confirmed by 'thumping' next to the seismograph and getting a strong oscillation in the tracing, but Amaseis either indicates it cannot open the com port or opens it but doesn't produce a trace. I have tried two separate computers running Windows XP and Windows ME, two different ports, serial and USB via an adapter and the results are identical. I get activity on Seismowin but I find that program obscure versus Amaseis, which I have used in the past. Any ideas? Chris Marshall Tucson, AZ
Greetings,
First, I'll apologize for this posting since I am sure it comes up repeatedly. I searched the archives but couldn't find anything that answered my problem. I have a Lehmann connected via Larry Cochrane's amplifier filter board to a DATAQ 194RS A/D input. With everything set up, I get a good tracing on the DATAQ data acquisition module, confirmed by 'thumping' next to the seismograph and getting a strong oscillation in the tracing, but Amaseis either indicates it cannot open the com port or opens it but doesn't produce a trace. I have tried two separate computers running Windows XP and Windows ME, two different ports, serial and USB via an adapter and the results are identical. I get activity on Seismowin but I find that program obscure versus Amaseis, which I have used in the past.
Any ideas?
Chris Marshall
Tucson, AZ
Subject: Re: Amaseis From: "Kay Wyatt" kwyatt@............. Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:59:05 -0700 Chris, On the Amaseis toolbar, you can select "Settings" and then "Device". = There is a popup with a list of devices, one of which is a DATAQ194, It = doesn't have an "RS" on the device name, but I was wondering if you had = noticed this option. If you have already done this, then perhaps you = might contact Alan Jones at alan.jones@.............. who wrote the = software. Keep us posted on your progress. Kay Wyatt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: christopher.marshall@.......... To: PSN-L@................. Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:00 AM Subject: Amaseis Greetings, First, I'll apologize for this posting since I am sure it comes up = repeatedly. I searched the archives but couldn't find anything that = answered my problem. I have a Lehmann connected via Larry Cochrane's = amplifier filter board to a DATAQ 194RS A/D input. With everything set = up, I get a good tracing on the DATAQ data acquisition module, confirmed = by 'thumping' next to the seismograph and getting a strong oscillation = in the tracing, but Amaseis either indicates it cannot open the com port = or opens it but doesn't produce a trace. I have tried two separate = computers running Windows XP and Windows ME, two different ports, serial = and USB via an adapter and the results are identical. I get activity on = Seismowin but I find that program obscure versus Amaseis, which I have = used in the past. Any ideas? Chris Marshall Tucson, AZ
Chris,
On the Amaseis toolbar, you can select = "Settings" and then=20 "Device".  There is a popup with a list of devices, one of which is = a=20 DATAQ194,  It doesn't have an "RS" on the device name, but I was = wondering=20 if you had noticed this option.   If you have already done = this, then=20 perhaps you might contact Alan Jones at alan.jones@..............=20 who wrote the software.  Keep us posted = on your=20 progress.
Kay Wyatt
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 christopher.marshall@........ =20
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 = 8:00 AM
Subject: Amaseis

Greetings,
First, I'll apologize for this posting since I am sure it comes = up=20 repeatedly. I searched the archives but couldn't find anything that = answered=20 my problem. I have a Lehmann connected via Larry Cochrane's amplifier = filter=20 board to a DATAQ 194RS A/D input. With everything set up, I get a good = tracing=20 on the DATAQ data acquisition module, confirmed by 'thumping' next to = the=20 seismograph and getting a strong oscillation in the tracing, but = Amaseis=20 either indicates it cannot open the com port or opens it but doesn't = produce a=20 trace. I have tried two separate computers running Windows XP and = Windows ME,=20 two different ports, serial and USB via an adapter and the results are = identical. I get activity on Seismowin but I find that program obscure = versus=20 Amaseis, which I have used in the past.
Any ideas?
Chris Marshall
Tucson, AZ
Subject: Re: Amaseis From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:09:51 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/27, christopher.marshall@....... writes: > I have tried two separate computers running Windows XP and Windows ME, two > different ports, serial and USB via an adapter and the results are identical. > I get activity on Seismowin but I find that program obscure versus Amaseis, > which I have used in the past. Hi Chris, This sounds like an AmaSeis setup file problem or a wrong choice of device. Check the text? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/27, christopher.marshall@....... writes:

I have tried two separate compu= ters running Windows XP and Windows ME, two different ports, serial and USB=20= via an adapter and the results are identical. I get activity on Seismowin bu= t I find that program obscure versus Amaseis, which I have used in the past.=


Hi Chris,

       This sounds like an AmaSeis setup file=20= problem or a wrong choice of device. Check the text?

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Amaseis From: christopher.marshall@....... Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:47:22 +0000 Hi Chris, Actually, just after I posted my message I got Amaseis to recognize the com port, which it was doing intermittently. Then I found an old posting of yours about using the data window to set the zero value, which worked! Turn out the zero value is 40,800, a value I never would have found randomly. The next issue is noise. I am using the lower gain channel on Larry's amplifier/filter board and have Amaseis set on a gain of 1 with a decimate factor of 1. I am getting electrical spikes at about a frequency of one Hz. Any ideas? Chris Marshall -------------- Original message from ChrisAtUpw@........ -------------- In a message dated 2008/07/27, christopher.marshall@....... writes: I have tried two separate computers running Windows XP and Windows ME, two different ports, serial and USB via an adapter and the results are identical. I get activity on Seismowin but I find that program obscure versus Amaseis, which I have used in the past. Hi Chris, This sounds like an AmaSeis setup file problem or a wrong choice of device. Check the text? Regards, Chris Chapman
Hi Chris,
Actually, just after I posted my message I got Amaseis to recognize th= e com port, which it was doing intermittently. Then I found an old posting = of yours about using the data window to set the zero value, which worked! T= urn out the zero value is 40,800, a value I never would have found randomly= .. The next issue is noise. I am using the lower gain channel on Larry's amp= lifier/filter board and have Amaseis set on a gain of 1 with a decimate fac= tor of 1. I am getting electrical spikes at about a frequency of one Hz. An= y ideas?
Chris Marshall
-------------- Original message from ChrisAtUpw@........ ---= -----------

In a message dated 2008/07/27, christopher.marshall@....... writes:
<= BR>
I have tried two separate c= omputers running Windows XP and Windows ME, two different ports, serial and= USB via an adapter and the results are identical. I get activity on Seismo= win but I find that program obscure versus Amaseis, which I have used in th= e past.


Hi Chris,

     =   This sounds like an AmaSeis setup file problem or a wrong choice of = device. Check the text?

       Regards= ,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Amaseis From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:34:55 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/27, christopher.marshall@....... writes: > Then I found an old posting of yours about using the data window to set the > zero value, which worked! Turn out the zero value is 40,800, a value I never > would have found randomly. Hi Chris, First check the line voltages on Larry's amplifier, say on pins 7 and 4 of the input opamp LT1007 with a DVM. They should be +/-12V. Then check the DC output voltage of your amplifier. If it is way off zero, adjust the voltage trim potentiometer on the amplifier. Then short the input to the ADC and check what reading you are getting. It is possible that there is a fault on Ch1, but if you have been using it OK with other programs, this seems unlikely. The next issue is noise. I am using the lower gain channel on Larry's amplifier/filter > board and have Amaseis set on a gain of 1 with a decimate factor of 1. I am > getting electrical spikes at about a frequency of one Hz. Any ideas? Check your cables and the PSU. Unplug everything in sequence and see what effects this has. It is most likely an intermittent contact, but it could be a faulty PSU. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/27, christopher.marshall@....... writes:

Then I found an old posting of=20= yours about using the data window to set the zero value, which worked! Turn=20= out the zero value is 40,800, a value I never would have found randomly.

Hi Chris,

       First check the line voltages on Larry'= s amplifier, say on pins 7 and 4 of the input opamp LT1007 with a DVM. They=20= should be +/-12V.

       Then check the DC output voltage of you= r amplifier. If it is way off zero, adjust the voltage trim potentiometer on= the amplifier.

       Then short the input to the ADC and che= ck what reading you are getting. It is possible that there is a fault on Ch1= , but if you have been using it OK with other programs, this seems unlikely.=

The next issue is noise. I am using the lower gain channel on Larry's amplif= ier/filter

board and have Amaseis set on=20= a gain of 1 with a decimate factor of 1. I am getting electrical spikes at a= bout a frequency of one Hz. Any ideas?


       Check your cables and the PSU. Unplug e= verything in sequence and see what effects this has. It is most likely an in= termittent contact, but it could be a faulty PSU.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Amaseis From: "Robert McClure" bobmcclure90@......... Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:00:54 -0400 Hi Chris, Since you are using a Dataq DI-194RS (which I do not recommend, only 10 bits), and are having trouble using it with Amaseis, have you tried logging with the WinDaq Lite recorder? You may be able to sort out whether Amaseis is causing your problems, or your seismic system. I use a DI-154RS to log data from three sensors. I would not use Amaseis even if I had only one channel. Instead, I use my own logging software, my own heliplot program (with filters included) and my own software to convert event data to PSN format files, which I subsequently filter using my own WQFilter program. Please take a look at my web pages at http://bobmcclure90.googlepages.com/sitemap You will find all the software you need to operate a seismic station using Dataq data acquisition. Cheers, Bob ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ChrisAtUpw@....... Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 6:34 PM Reply-To: psn-l@.............. To: psn-l@.............. In a message dated 2008/07/27, christopher.marshall@....... writes: > Then I found an old posting of yours about using the data window to set the zero value, which worked! Turn out the zero value is 40,800, a value I never would have found randomly. Hi Chris, First check the line voltages on Larry's amplifier, say on pins 7 and 4 of the input opamp LT1007 with a DVM. They should be +/-12V. Then check the DC output voltage of your amplifier. If it is way off zero, adjust the voltage trim potentiometer on the amplifier. Then short the input to the ADC and check what reading you are getting. It is possible that there is a fault on Ch1, but if you have been using it OK with other programs, this seems unlikely. The next issue is noise. I am using the lower gain channel on Larry's amplifier/filter > board and have Amaseis set on a gain of 1 with a decimate factor of 1. I am getting electrical spikes at about a frequency of one Hz. Any ideas? Check your cables and the PSU. Unplug everything in sequence and see what effects this has. It is most likely an intermittent contact, but it could be a faulty PSU. Regards, Chris Chapman __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Amaseis From: christopher.marshall@....... Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 03:02:57 +0000 Hi Bob, Visited your site and downloaded your programs. I'll give them a try. May upgrade my ADC when I can afford a new one as well. Thanks for the input. Chris -------------- Original message from "Robert McClure" : -------------- > Hi Chris, > > Since you are using a Dataq DI-194RS (which I do not recommend, only > 10 bits), and are having trouble using it with Amaseis, have you tried > logging with the WinDaq Lite recorder? You may be able to sort out > whether Amaseis is causing your problems, or your seismic system. > > I use a DI-154RS to log data from three sensors. I would not use > Amaseis even if I had only one channel. Instead, I use my own logging > software, my own heliplot program (with filters included) and my own > software to convert event data to PSN format files, which I > subsequently filter using my own WQFilter program. > > Please take a look at my web pages at > http://bobmcclure90.googlepages.com/sitemap > > You will find all the software you need to operate a seismic station > using Dataq data acquisition. > > Cheers, > > Bob > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ChrisAtUpw@....... > Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 6:34 PM > Reply-To: psn-l@.............. > To: psn-l@.............. > > In a message dated 2008/07/27, christopher.marshall@....... writes: > > > Then I found an old posting of yours about using the data window to set the > zero value, which worked! Turn out the zero value is 40,800, a value I never > would have found randomly. > > > Hi Chris, > > First check the line voltages on Larry's amplifier, say on pins > 7 and 4 of the input opamp LT1007 with a DVM. They should be +/-12V. > > Then check the DC output voltage of your amplifier. If it is > way off zero, adjust the voltage trim potentiometer on the amplifier. > > Then short the input to the ADC and check what reading you are > getting. It is possible that there is a fault on Ch1, but if you have > been using it OK with other programs, this seems unlikely. > > The next issue is noise. I am using the lower gain channel on Larry's > amplifier/filter > > board and have Amaseis set on a gain of 1 with a decimate factor of 1. I am > getting electrical spikes at about a frequency of one Hz. Any ideas? > > > Check your cables and the PSU. Unplug everything in sequence > and see what effects this has. It is most likely an intermittent > contact, but it could be a faulty PSU. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.
Hi Bob,
Visited your site and downloaded your programs. I'll give them a try. = May upgrade my ADC when I can afford a new one as well. Thanks for the inpu= t.
Chris
-------------- Original message from "Robert McClure" <bo= bmcclure90@.........>: --------------


> Hi Chris,
>= ;
> Since you are using a Dataq DI-194RS (which I do not recommend, = only
> 10 bits), and are having trouble using it with Amaseis, have = you tried
> logging with the WinDaq Lite recorder? You may be able t= o sort out
> whether Amaseis is causing your problems, or your seism= ic system.
>
> I use a DI-154RS to log data from three sensor= s. I would not use
> Amaseis even if I had only one channel. Instead= , I use my own logging
> software, my own heliplot program (with fil= ters included) and my own
> software to convert event data to PSN fo= rmat files, which I
> subsequently filter using my own WQFilter prog= ram.
>
> Please take a look at my web pages at
> http:= //bobmcclure90.googlepages.com/sitemap
>
> You will find all = the software you need to operate a seismic station
> using Dataq dat= a acquisition.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bob
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ChrisAtUpw@a= ol.com
> Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 6:34 PM
> R= eply-To: psn-l@..............
> To: psn-l@..............
> > In a message dated 2008/07/27, christopher.marshall@....... writes: =
>
> > Then I found an old posting of yours about using the= data window to set the
> zero value, which worked! Turn out the zer= o value is 40,800, a value I never
> would have found randomly.
= >
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> First check the line vol= tages on Larry's amplifier, say on pins
> 7 and 4 of the input opamp= LT1007 with a DVM. They should be +/-12V.
>
> Then check the= DC output voltage of your amplifier. If it=20is
> way off zero, adj= ust the voltage trim potentiometer on the amplifier.
>
> Then= short the input to the ADC and check what reading you are
> getting= .. It is possible that there is a fault on Ch1, but if you have
> bee= n using it OK with other programs, this seems unlikely.
>
> T= he next issue is noise. I am using the lower gain channel on Larry's
&g= t; amplifier/filter
> > board and have Amaseis set on a gain of 1= with a decimate factor of 1. I am
> getting electrical spikes at ab= out a frequency of one Hz. Any ideas?
>
>
> Check your= cables and the PSU. Unplug everything in sequence
> and see what ef= fects this has. It is most likely an intermittent
> contact, but it = could be a faulty PSU.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris C= hapman
> __________________________________________________________ =
>
> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)
>
= > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with
> th= e body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
> See http://ww= w.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.
Subject: Relevelling From: Steinar Midtskogen steinar@............. Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:42:56 +0200 I've had a SEP seismometer running for a month or so and everything has been fine. However, a couple of days ago while we were away on vacation it began reporting no activity. When I got back home I found that the mass had moved all the way to the side, so I had to change the tilt a little so it would move back to the centre again. Is this normal behaviour for a Lehmann seismometer? The mass moved away from the center at a time the house was empty, so I can't really think of any external disturbances which could have caused this. -- Steinar Midtskogen http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: L.A earthquake From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:57:21 +0000 Hi all I hope that everyone is ok because of the L.A earthquake that did just happen now. Keep me informed plz. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: L.A earthquake From: Canie canie@........... Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:06:16 -0700 It was WELL FELT in Long Beach, CA Big jolt at one point after some rocking, big=20 jolt, then lots of movement afterwards for a=20 while - we sit on a big bowl of jelly here in Long Beach. Some stuff fell off bookcases and such - no other damage we know of... Canie At 11:57 AM 7/29/2008, J=F3n Fr=EDmann wrote: >Hi all > >I hope that everyone is ok because of the L.A earthquake that did just >happen now. > >Keep me informed plz. > >Regards. >-- >J=F3n Fr=EDmann >http://www.jonfr.com >http://earthquakes.jonfr.com >http://www.net303.net >http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: L.A earthquake From: "Steve Hammond" shammon1@............. Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:20:38 -0700 I just talked to a friend in LA and this was felt strongly over a large area. CNN reports no immediate reports of major damage.=20 Regards, Steve Hammond PSN San Jose-- Aptos, CA -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of J=F3n Fr=EDmann Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:57 AM To: PSN-Postlist Subject: L.A earthquake Hi all I hope that everyone is ok because of the L.A earthquake that did just happen now. Keep me informed plz. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: L.A earthquake From: "Steve Hammond" shammon1@............. Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:20:38 -0700 I just talked to a friend in LA and this was felt strongly over a large area. CNN reports no immediate reports of major damage.=20 Regards, Steve Hammond PSN San Jose-- Aptos, CA -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of J=F3n Fr=EDmann Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:57 AM To: PSN-Postlist Subject: L.A earthquake Hi all I hope that everyone is ok because of the L.A earthquake that did just happen now. Keep me informed plz. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Relevelling From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:08:55 EDT In a message dated 2008/07/29, steinar@............. writes: > I've had a SEP seismometer running for a month or so and everything > has been fine. However, a couple of days ago while we were away on > vacation it began reporting no activity. When I got back home I found > that the mass had moved all the way to the side, so I had to change > the tilt a little so it would move back to the centre again. > > Is this normal behaviour for a Lehmann seismometer? The mass moved > away from the center at a time the house was empty, so I can't really > think of any external disturbances which could have caused this. Hi Steinar, Yes and no? I fit a SS wavy spring washer and a SS lock nut on the levelling screws on top of the baseplate. This does seem to hold the balance a bit better and tends to reduce temperature effects. No screw is absolutely tight, so different contractions of the base and the ground with temperature can cause sideways forces making the thread move out of adjustment. Lehmans are very sensitive to tilt variations. Has there been any rain while you have been away? This is a common cause of real ground tilts. Did you switch off the heating while you were away? Have you fitted metal ground plates under the adjustment screws? I use about 8 cm square x 2.5 mm thick SS. Putting adjustment screws directly onto concrete can cause problems as surface grit moves. Something has happened in your absense. The only question is what and can you avoid it happening again? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2008/07/29, steinar@............. writes:

I've had a SEP seismometer runn= ing for a month or so and everything
has been fine.  However, a couple of days ago while we were away on
vacation it began reporting no activity.  When I got back home I found<= BR> that the mass had moved all the way to the side, so I had to change
the tilt a little so it would move back to the centre again.

Is this normal behaviour for a Lehmann seismometer?  The mass moved
away from the center at a time the house was empty, so I can't really
think of any external disturbances which could have caused this.

Hi Steinar,

       Yes and no?

       I fit a SS wavy spring washer and a SS=20= lock nut on the levelling screws on top of the baseplate. This does seem to=20= hold the balance a bit better and tends to reduce temperature effects. No sc= rew is absolutely tight, so different contractions of the base and the groun= d with temperature can cause sideways forces making the thread move out of a= djustment. Lehmans are very sensitive to tilt variations.

       Has there been any rain while you have=20= been away? This is a common cause of real ground tilts. Did you switch off t= he heating while you were away?

       Have you fitted metal ground plates und= er the adjustment screws? I use about 8 cm square x 2.5 mm thick SS. Putting= adjustment screws directly onto concrete can cause problems as surface grit= moves.

       Something has happened in your absense.= The only question is what and can you avoid it happening again?

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Relevelling From: Steinar Midtskogen steinar@............. Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:43:48 +0200 [ChrisAtUpw@........ > In a message dated 2008/07/29, steinar@............. writes: > > > I've had a SEP seismometer running for a month or so and everything > has been fine. However, a couple of days ago while we were away on > vacation it began reporting no activity. When I got back home I found > that the mass had moved all the way to the side, so I had to change > the tilt a little so it would move back to the centre again. .... > Has there been any rain while you have been away? This is a > common cause of real ground tilts. Did you switch off the heating > while you were away? No rain. Hardly a cloud. No changes to the heating. There is no heating in that room and the temperature there is extremely stable. I have a temperature sensor there and for the day it happened I logged a maximum of 21.33C and a minimum of 21.04C. I don't think one can get a more stable temperature than that. Humidity ranged from 38.7% to 43.9%. The only thing out of the ordinary is that the outside temperature during the past days reached a high of 29.4C which is a new record for the 5 years I've been recording the weather. The ground temperature is very high as well, 18C as deep as 50 cm, something which I don't think I've recorded before. > Have you fitted metal ground plates under the adjustment screws? Yes, but they're not bolted or otherways attached to the floor. > I use about 8 cm square x 2.5 mm thick SS. They're around 3x3 cm and 1-2 mm thick. > Something has happened in your absense. The only question is > what and can you avoid it happening again? True. I guess I might have to wait for it to happen again and see if that offers more hints. Thanks, -- Steinar __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Setting WinSDR TeleSeismic Event Alarm Parameters From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:02:14 -0700 I've noticed that I have been getting some false Teleseismic alarms. I'm using the default values: STA/LTA Ratio=5, Trigger Number=2, LTA Low Limit=.1, LTA High Limit=1000, Pre-trigger time=3, Trigger Time=20, STA Time=2, LTA Time=6. Are there other values that I should be using. Thank you, Gary Gary Lindgren 585 Lincoln Ave Palo Alto CA 94301 650-326-0655 www.blue-eagle-technologies.com cymonsplace.blogspot.com

I’ve noticed that I have been getting some = false Teleseismic alarms. I’m using the default values:

STA/LTA Ratio=3D5, Trigger Number=3D2,  LTA = Low Limit=3D.1, LTA High Limit=3D1000, Pre-trigger time=3D3, Trigger Time=3D20, STA = Time=3D2, LTA Time=3D6.

Are there other values that I should be = using.

Thank you,

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gary Lindgren

585 Lincoln Ave

Palo Alto CA 94301

 

650-326-0655<= /span>

 

www.blue-eagle-technologies.com

cymonsplace.blogspot.com 

 

 

Subject: Re: Setting WinSDR TeleSeismic Event Alarm Parameters From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:35:26 -0700 The STA/LTA number sets the overall sensitivity, so I would play around with this number first. Increasing this number will lower the sensitivity and cut down on false alarms. -Larry Gary Lindgren wrote: > I've noticed that I have been getting some false Teleseismic alarms. I'm > using the default values: > > STA/LTA Ratio=5, Trigger Number=2, LTA Low Limit=.1, LTA High Limit=1000, > Pre-trigger time=3, Trigger Time=20, STA Time=2, LTA Time=6. > > Are there other values that I should be using. > > Thank you, > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Lindgren > > 585 Lincoln Ave > > Palo Alto CA 94301 > > > > 650-326-0655 > > > > www.blue-eagle-technologies.com > > cymonsplace.blogspot.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Relevelling From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:16:56 -0700 Steinar, I noticed that you have your seismometer mounted on the plywood floor. The plywood could be moving as the temperature changes. Is there a way you can have it mounted closer to the ground. Do you have a basement with concrete floor. This would be better for temperature stability too. Gary -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Steinar Midtskogen Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:43 AM To: PSN-L@.............. Subject: Relevelling I've had a SEP seismometer running for a month or so and everything has been fine. However, a couple of days ago while we were away on vacation it began reporting no activity. When I got back home I found that the mass had moved all the way to the side, so I had to change the tilt a little so it would move back to the centre again. Is this normal behaviour for a Lehmann seismometer? The mass moved away from the center at a time the house was empty, so I can't really think of any external disturbances which could have caused this. -- Steinar Midtskogen http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Relevelling From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:17:21 +1000 Steinar, I agree with Gary, mounting you system on a wooden floor is just a total no no ... you are reaslly asking for problems You have to do everything you can to get the Lehman sitting on a concrete pad its the only way to get serious stability. (Keeping in the back of you mind that even a concrete pad can move a bit with ground swelling etc beneath it. the larger the pad the more stable it would usually be) Even considering that, the concrete pad will be infinitely more stable. Something that Gary didn't mention.... having the sensor elevated off the ground within the building. The sensor is going to record the response of the building to the passing seismic waves, rather than the motion of the ground to those waves. This of course is not what is wanted. Your primary mission is to record the ground motion NOT the swaying of the building due to seismic waves, wind, manmade movement etc. You have done an excellent job building the Lehman and housing .. don't degrade the results by poor location :) Cheers Dave Nelson Sydney At 03:16 PM 7/30/2008 -0700, you wrote: >Steinar, >I noticed that you have your seismometer mounted on the plywood floor. The >plywood could be moving as the temperature changes. Is there a way you can >have it mounted closer to the ground. Do you have a basement with concrete >floor. This would be better for temperature stability too. >Gary > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Relevelling From: Steinar Midtskogen steinar@............. Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:03:57 +0200 [Dave Nelson] > Steinar, > I agree with Gary, mounting you system on a wooden > floor is just a total > no no ... you are reaslly asking for problems No, it's a vinyl floor, just 1-2 mm thick on concrete in the basement. The house itself is built on bedrock (with some gravel between, I suppose). I can cut holes in the floor so the seismometer becomes mounted directly on concrete, but I'll not consider that before I know that the current location is the best I can use. I don't think water underneath the house causing the ground to swell can explain why the seismometer tilted. There had not been any rain for a while. Also, I log radon levels in the basement (in the same room) and the radon levels are a pretty good indication of movements in the ground due to water. The radon levels indicate no such ground movements. -- Steinar __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Relevelling From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:54:54 +1000 Steinar, ahhhhhh great :) thats ok ya had us all worried there for a while ;) from your photo it looked like a wooden floor, hence the comments from Gary and myself. not sure what else to suggest..... But I bet its still most likely a foundation movement problem. any chances of a couple of sharp closeup photo's of the pivot ? thats maybe one of the few other things that could be causing a problem. It would be good to see an english version of your www pages some time for a better understanding of your system :) Dave Nelson www.sydneystormcity.com >No, it's a vinyl floor, just 1-2 mm thick on concrete in the basement. >The house itself is built on bedrock (with some gravel between, I >suppose). I can cut holes in the floor so the seismometer becomes >mounted directly on concrete, but I'll not consider that before I know >that the current location is the best I can use. > >I don't think water underneath the house causing the ground to swell >can explain why the seismometer tilted. There had not been any rain >for a while. Also, I log radon levels in the basement (in the same >room) and the radon levels are a pretty good indication of movements >in the ground due to water. The radon levels indicate no such ground >movements. > > >-- >Steinar >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1591 - Release Date: 8/4/2008 >7:23 PM __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Relevelling From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:47:12 -0600 Hi Steinar, Outside of having the horizontal seismometer very mechanically rigid put together; almost every horizontal like yours I've set up seems to need a metallic stress adjustment "settling in period of time" for the machine to adjust to its temperature environment; which can even be 2-3 months of time. This can be true for a seismometer like yours and I've even also seen such on a smaller S-G; simple hanging mass gravity zeroing pendulum. Chris Chapmans set screws advise is quite valid. I usually have taken it perhaps a bit further....and by that I literally mean, NO possible slippage; or, the setscrews tightly prevented from ANY wobble movement with using other nuts/locking washers thereon to prevent ANY movement. If, you need to literally tightly anchor such with using a one or two fixed or adjustable wrenchs...so be it. Whats your natural seismometer period? Running too long a period on them makes them ultra sensitive to even very slight tilts. Try reducing the natural period if the problem keeps recurring too often. Its quite possible you will have to run them lower like at 15 seconds; even though your machine is likely capable of like up to 20-30 seconds; all the frequent leveling screw adjustments can just be too much to content with over time. Big distant quakes will still temporarily tilt your machine anyway to whatever period they eventually radiate from their epicenter. It also sounds like a "seasonal tilt"; which in escense is a outside environmental temperature change thats worked its temperature change way down into the soil/rock surrounding your area....which for there is now summer. After the (~ 1 month) beginning onset of real winter cold, you'll see more sudden tilts. Regardless of cause, all you can do is keep on recentering the pendulum; the tilt/s will be a constant very minor procedure you'll always have to content with.....its just the actual nature of your seismometer/tiltmeter. Hmmm....over time....you might even mentally "consider" switching the pivot to one like Chris Chapman has recently done; and that is putting a flat on the end of the boom, and putting a fixed ball on the mast for better stability and operational results. Its "sounds" perhaps drastic for your new seismometer; but I doubt if it is mechanically tough to consider/do/try. Take care, Meredith Lamb On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Steinar Midtskogen wrote: > I've had a SEP seismometer running for a month or so and everything > has been fine. However, a couple of days ago while we were away on > vacation it began reporting no activity. When I got back home I found > that the mass had moved all the way to the side, so I had to change > the tilt a little so it would move back to the centre again. > > Is this normal behaviour for a Lehmann seismometer? The mass moved > away from the center at a time the house was empty, so I can't really > think of any external disturbances which could have caused this. > > -- > Steinar Midtskogen > http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/ > __________________________________________________________ >
Hi Steinar,
 
Outside of having the horizontal seismometer very mechanically rigid put together; almost every horizontal like yours I've set up seems to need
a metallic stress adjustment "settling in period of time" for the machine to adjust to its temperature environment; which can even be 2-3 months of time.
This can be true for a seismometer like yours and I've even also seen such on a smaller S-G; simple hanging mass gravity zeroing pendulum. 
 
Chris Chapmans set screws advise is quite valid.  I usually have taken it perhaps a bit further....and by that I literally mean, NO possible slippage;
or, the setscrews tightly prevented from ANY wobble movement with using other nuts/locking washers thereon to prevent ANY movement.  If, you need to
literally tightly anchor such with using a one or two fixed or adjustable wrenchs...so be it. 
 
Whats your natural seismometer period?  Running too long a period on them makes them ultra sensitive to even very slight tilts.  Try reducing the
natural period if the problem keeps recurring too often.  Its quite possible you will have to run them lower like at 15 seconds; even though your
machine is likely capable of like up to 20-30 seconds; all the frequent leveling screw adjustments can just be too much to content with over time.
Big distant quakes will still temporarily tilt your machine anyway to whatever period they eventually radiate from their epicenter.   
 
It also sounds like a "seasonal tilt"; which in escense is a outside environmental temperature change thats worked its temperature change way down
into the soil/rock surrounding your area....which for there is now summer.  After the (~ 1 month) beginning onset of real winter cold, you'll see more sudden tilts.
 
Regardless of cause, all you can do is keep on recentering the pendulum; the tilt/s will be a constant very minor procedure you'll always have
to content with.....its just the actual nature of your seismometer/tiltmeter.
 
Hmmm....over time....you might even mentally "consider" switching the pivot to one like Chris Chapman has recently done; and that is putting a flat
on the end of the boom, and putting a fixed ball on the mast for better stability and operational results.  Its "sounds" perhaps drastic for your new
seismometer; but I doubt if it is mechanically tough to consider/do/try. 
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Steinar Midtskogen <steinar@.............> wrote:
I've had a SEP seismometer running for a month or so and everything
has been fine.  However, a couple of days ago while we were away on
vacation it began reporting no activity.  When I got back home I found
that the mass had moved all the way to the side, so I had to change
the tilt a little so it would move back to the centre again.

Is this normal behaviour for a Lehmann seismometer?  The mass moved
away from the center at a time the house was empty, so I can't really
think of any external disturbances which could have caused this.

--
Steinar Midtskogen
http://voksenlia.net/met/seismometer/
__________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: SEP seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 18:26:02 EDT Hi Dave, The details of the Lehman are given at http://www.bgs.ac.uk/education/school_seismology/ Click on seismometer for full details and a bigger photo. The bearings are crossed polished tungsten carbide rods. You can get periods of 30 seconds quite easily. Regards, Chris Chapman Hi Dave= ,    


       The details of the Lehman are given at&= nbsp; 

       http://www.bgs.ac.uk/education/school_s= eismology/

       Click on seismometer for full details a= nd a bigger photo.

       The bearings are crossed polished tungs= ten carbide rods. You can get periods of 30 seconds quite easily.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: False Earthquake Signatures From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:18:45 -0700 Sometimes I try locate an earthquake that I see on my sensor and can't find anything on the networks. From the way it looks, I would say it was an earthquake. What is happening. Would these be extremely small tremors close by that are not registered by the networks. See this one I detected today. http://gelindgren.googlepages.com/080806.073329.ch1.psn.gif Gary Gary Lindgren 585 Lincoln Ave Palo Alto CA 94301 650-326-0655 www.blue-eagle-technologies.com cymonsplace.blogspot.com

Sometimes I try locate an earthquake that I see on = my sensor and can’t find anything on the networks. From the way it looks, I = would say it was an earthquake. What is happening. Would these be extremely = small tremors close by that are not registered by the networks. See this one I detected today. http= ://gelindgren.googlepages.com/080806.073329.ch1.psn.gif

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

Gary Lindgren

585 Lincoln Ave

Palo Alto CA 94301

 

650-326-0655<= /span>

 

www.blue-eagle-technologies.com

cymonsplace.blogspot.com 

 

 

Subject: Re: False Earthquake Signatures From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:32:31 -0700 Gary, this looks like a freight train going by. If you do an FFT on the data you will see that the frequency range is rather narrow. An earthquake generates waves in a broader spectrum. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN Gary Lindgren wrote: > Sometimes I try locate an earthquake that I see on my sensor and can't find > anything on the networks. From the way it looks, I would say it was an > earthquake. What is happening. Would these be extremely small tremors close > by that are not registered by the networks. See this one I detected today. > http://gelindgren.googlepages.com/080806.073329.ch1.psn.gif > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Lindgren > > 585 Lincoln Ave > > Palo Alto CA 94301 > > > > 650-326-0655 > > > > www.blue-eagle-technologies.com > > cymonsplace.blogspot.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: False Earthquake Signatures From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 15:36:53 -0700 Are there any mining operations within 10 degrees or so ? Vehicles can sometimes create signals that look somewhat like a small quake ? Construction or mining operations close by ? I just received a M3.5 to M4.0 quake like signature the other day that appeared to be within 230 to 270 statute miles but no one else saw it so I just ignored it, I do not trust any signals the big guys do not report as having seen too. The navy I used to work for required three independently varifiable sources for new information before it would trust any reports. The big guys (USGS) seem to see everything so if they dont report it I do not trust what i see here. One station alone cant rule out phony signals/artifacts. geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Lindgren" To: "PSN List" Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 2:18 PM Subject: False Earthquake Signatures > Sometimes I try locate an earthquake that I see on my sensor and can't find > anything on the networks. From the way it looks, I would say it was an > earthquake. What is happening. Would these be extremely small tremors close > by that are not registered by the networks. See this one I detected today. > http://gelindgren.googlepages.com/080806.073329.ch1.psn.gif > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Lindgren > > 585 Lincoln Ave > > Palo Alto CA 94301 > > > > 650-326-0655 > > > > www.blue-eagle-technologies.com > > cymonsplace.blogspot.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: False Earthquake Signatures From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:15:11 -0700 Thank you Larry, that solves a mystery. I'm about 3/4 mile from the SP rails. I saw 2 like that signature about 4 hours apart. Still learning. Gary -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Larry Cochrane Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 2:33 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: False Earthquake Signatures Gary, this looks like a freight train going by. If you do an FFT on the data you will see that the frequency range is rather narrow. An earthquake generates waves in a broader spectrum. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN Gary Lindgren wrote: > Sometimes I try locate an earthquake that I see on my sensor and can't find > anything on the networks. From the way it looks, I would say it was an > earthquake. What is happening. Would these be extremely small tremors close > by that are not registered by the networks. See this one I detected today. > http://gelindgren.googlepages.com/080806.073329.ch1.psn.gif > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Lindgren > > 585 Lincoln Ave > > Palo Alto CA 94301 > > > > 650-326-0655 > > > > www.blue-eagle-technologies.com > > cymonsplace.blogspot.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ANDREANOF ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN IS., ALASKA From: Jan Froom JDarwin@............. Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:00:24 -0700 Is there any news regarding the earthquake swarm coming from the ANDREANOF ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN IS., ALASKA. Jan in Gilroy __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Alaska's swarm From: tchannel1@............ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 17:40:54 -0600 Hi All, I have a friend, who has a friend in Alaska, he = writes......below........He sent me a screenshot of his helicorder, I = have no way to post it here but just email me directly and I will send = it to you..It is massive...........I counted 248 events at hour 22:00 = today. Thanks, Ted here's a helicorder image (PNG format) of the swarm from an 3C short = period instrument=20 on Great Sitkin island, 30 miles from Kasatochi M it is crazy around here now. let me send you a screenshot of the = earthquake swarm=20 here in a second.=20 in the last hour continuous tremor has begun to accompany the = earthquakes, so=20 this may become volcanic instead of just tectonic. the volcano = (Kasatochi) is not well known and has=20 no seismic instruments. the closest seismometers are about 30 miles = away. however, the tremor is strong enough to be seen there. the swarm to the best of my knowledge is not a typical = mainshock-aftershock=20 sequence. so this means it may be a result of an intrusion. M=20
Hi All,  I have a friend, who = has a=20 friend in Alaska, he writes......below........He sent me a screenshot of = his=20 helicorder, I have no way to post it here but just email me directly and = I will=20 send it to you..It is massive...........I counted 248 events at hour = 22:00=20 today.
 
Thanks, Ted
 
 
here's a helicorder image (PNG format) of the swarm from an 3C = short period=20 instrument
on Great Sitkin island, 30 miles from = Kasatochi

M

 
it is crazy around here now. let me send you a screenshot of the=20 earthquake swarm
here in a second.
 
in the last hour continuous tremor has begun to accompany the=20 earthquakes, so
this may become volcanic instead of just tectonic. the volcano=20 (Kasatochi) is not well known and has
no seismic instruments. the closest seismometers are about 30 = miles=20 away.
 
however, the tremor is strong enough to be seen there.
 
the swarm to the best of my knowledge is not a typical=20 mainshock-aftershock
sequence. so this means it may be a result of an intrusion.
 
 

Subject: Okmok eruption in Alaska From: tchannel1@............ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:21:42 -0600 I continue to get correspondence from BSU here in Boise Idaho, and = friend in Alaska. They offer this eruption = wedsite.........http://www.avo.alaska.edu/activity/Okmok.php Thanks, Ted
I continue to get correspondence from = BSU here in=20 Boise Idaho, and friend in Alaska.
 
They offer this eruption=20 wedsite.........http://www.avo.alaska.edu/activity/Okmok.php
=
 
Thanks, Ted
Subject: RE: ANDREANOF ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN IS., ALASKA From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:18:52 -0700 Jan, Maybe this is your answer http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/486048.html Could be some volcanic activity. Gary -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Jan Froom Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:00 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: ANDREANOF ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN IS., ALASKA Is there any news regarding the earthquake swarm coming from the ANDREANOF ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN IS., ALASKA. Jan in Gilroy __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Winsdr From: Barry Lotz barry_lotz@............. Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Hi I was having problems ftp uploading a helicorder plot from winsdr to my website. I can see my web files from filezilla or internet explorer via ftp. I think it has to do with the information I am inputing or how I am entering it into winsdr. Anyone having success please let me know so I can find out what I am doing wrong. Barry
Hi
I was having problems ftp uploading a helicorder plot from winsdr to my website. I can see my web files from filezilla or internet explorer via ftp. I think it has to do with the information I am inputing  or how I am entering it into winsdr. Anyone having success please let me know so I can find out what I am doing wrong.
Barry
 
Subject: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: "JAMES ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:23:34 -0700 I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier (previous version) with an Motorola = Oncore GPS connected through Larry's GPS interface board. Does anyone = know why or have a solution for a drop out in data when the GPS corrects = the computer time. I am running Windows XP professional on the = computer. Everything else works fine with WinSDR. Thanks James Allen
I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier = (previous=20 version) with an Motorola Oncore GPS connected through Larry's GPS = interface=20 board.  Does anyone know why or have a solution for a drop out in = data when=20 the GPS corrects the computer time.  I am running Windows XP = professional=20 on the computer.  Everything else works fine with = WinSDR.
Thanks
James Allen
Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:51:17 +0000 Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote:


>

I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier (previous version) with an Motorola Oncore GPS connected through Larry's GPS interface board.  Does anyone know why or have a solution for a drop out in data when the GPS corrects the computer time.  I am running Windows XP professional on the computer.  Everything else works fine with WinSDR.

Thanks

James Allen


Hi James,


Windows has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries to keep your computer time.  Maybe it is doing just that and you end up with packets with weird timestamps.  Just a thought.


You can turn off this service.


regards,


Angel


Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: "JAMES ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:12:10 -0700 Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDRI will try turning = off Windows time service and see if that solves the problem. Thanks James ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Angel=20 To: JAMES ALLEN=20 Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote: > I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier (previous version) with an = Motorola Oncore GPS connected through Larry's GPS interface board. Does = anyone know why or have a solution for a drop out in data when the GPS = corrects the computer time. I am running Windows XP professional on the = computer. Everything else works fine with WinSDR. Thanks James Allen =20 Hi James, Windows has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries to keep = your computer time. Maybe it is doing just that and you end up with = packets with weird timestamps. Just a thought. You can turn off this service. regards, Angel Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN = WINSDR
I will try turning off Windows time = service and see=20 if that solves the problem.  Thanks
James
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Angel=20
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 = 5:51=20 PM
Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA = WHEN GPS=20 CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote:


>

I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier = (previous=20 version) with an Motorola Oncore GPS connected through Larry's = GPS=20 interface board.  Does anyone know why or have a solution = for a=20 drop out in data when the GPS corrects the computer time. =  I am=20 running Windows XP professional on the computer. =  Everything else=20 works fine with WinSDR.

Thanks

James = Allen


Hi James,


Windows has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries to = keep your=20 computer time.  Maybe it is doing just that and you end up with = packets=20 with weird timestamps.  Just a thought.


You can turn off this service.


regards,


Angel


Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: "Dave Nelson" davefnelson@....... Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:24:12 -0000 Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDRHi James, I had a similar problem with Vista. I had "set computer time " set to = enable . After a period of time (hour to days ) Winsdr would start to = produce errors and then crash. There is some kind of conflict between = the GPS derived time and the Windows operating system. My fix was to = disable the "set computer time" function and let the Winsdr time be = independent of the computer time and use the internet time on the = computer. The data is tagged with the GPS time so there is no error in = the seismic data.=20 I have been told by Angel that Vista does not allow the time to be set = by any source other than manual or internet time services . I admit I don't fully understand the interaction but Vista has this and = many other frustrating idiosyncrasies. I did not have this problem = with the XP home edition . Dave=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JAMES ALLEN=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 01:12 Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR I will try turning off Windows time service and see if that solves the = problem. Thanks James ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Angel=20 To: JAMES ALLEN=20 Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote: > I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier (previous version) with an = Motorola Oncore GPS connected through Larry's GPS interface board. Does = anyone know why or have a solution for a drop out in data when the GPS = corrects the computer time. I am running Windows XP professional on the = computer. Everything else works fine with WinSDR. Thanks James Allen =20 Hi James, Windows has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries to = keep your computer time. Maybe it is doing just that and you end up = with packets with weird timestamps. Just a thought. You can turn off this service. regards, Angel Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN = WINSDR
Hi James,
 
I had a similar problem with Vista. I = had "set=20 computer time " set to enable . After a period of time  (hour to = days )=20 Winsdr  would start to produce errors   and then crash. = There is=20 some kind of conflict between the GPS derived time and the Windows = operating=20 system. My fix was to disable the "set computer=20 time" function and let the Winsdr time be independent of the computer = time and=20 use the internet time on the computer. The data is tagged with the GPS = time so=20 there is no error in the seismic data.
 
I have been told  by Angel = that Vista=20 does not allow  the time to be set by any source other than manual = or=20 internet time services .
 
I admit I don't fully understand the = interaction=20 but Vista has this and many other frustrating idiosyncrasies.  I = did=20  not have this problem with the XP home edition .
 
Dave
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JAMES=20 ALLEN
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008=20 01:12
Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA = WHEN GPS=20 CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

I will try turning off Windows time = service and=20 see if that solves the problem.  Thanks
James
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Angel=20
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 = 5:51=20 PM
Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA = WHEN GPS=20 CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote:


>

I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier = (previous=20 version) with an Motorola Oncore GPS connected through Larry's = GPS=20 interface board.  Does anyone know why or have a solution = for a=20 drop out in data when the GPS corrects the computer time. =  I am=20 running Windows XP professional on the computer. =  Everything else=20 works fine with WinSDR.

Thanks

James = Allen


Hi James,


Windows has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries to = keep=20 your computer time.  Maybe it is doing just that and you end up = with=20 packets with weird timestamps.  Just a thought.


You can turn off this service.


regards,


Angel


Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: "JAMES ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:58:15 -0700 Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDRThanks Dave. I = disabled the computer automatically correcting the time in the time and = date window of Windows Xp, but alas, no luck. I guess I will just have = to live with not using the GPS to set the computer clock. =20 James Allen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dave Nelson=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:24 PM Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR Hi James, I had a similar problem with Vista. I had "set computer time " set to = enable . After a period of time (hour to days ) Winsdr would start to = produce errors and then crash. There is some kind of conflict between = the GPS derived time and the Windows operating system. My fix was to = disable the "set computer time" function and let the Winsdr time be = independent of the computer time and use the internet time on the = computer. The data is tagged with the GPS time so there is no error in = the seismic data.=20 I have been told by Angel that Vista does not allow the time to be = set by any source other than manual or internet time services . I admit I don't fully understand the interaction but Vista has this = and many other frustrating idiosyncrasies. I did not have this problem = with the XP home edition . Dave=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JAMES ALLEN=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 01:12 Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR I will try turning off Windows time service and see if that solves = the problem. Thanks James ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Angel=20 To: JAMES ALLEN=20 Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote: > I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier (previous version) with = an Motorola Oncore GPS connected through Larry's GPS interface board. = Does anyone know why or have a solution for a drop out in data when the = GPS corrects the computer time. I am running Windows XP professional on = the computer. Everything else works fine with WinSDR. Thanks James Allen =20 Hi James, Windows has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries to = keep your computer time. Maybe it is doing just that and you end up = with packets with weird timestamps. Just a thought. You can turn off this service. regards, Angel Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN = WINSDR
Thanks Dave.   I disabled the = computer=20 automatically correcting the time in the time and date window of Windows = Xp, but=20 alas, no luck.  I guess I will just have to live with not using the = GPS to=20 set the computer clock. 
James Allen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dave Nelson=20
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 = 7:24=20 PM
Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA = WHEN GPS=20 CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

Hi James,
 
I had a similar problem with Vista. I = had "set=20 computer time " set to enable . After a period of time  (hour to = days )=20 Winsdr  would start to produce errors   and then crash. = There=20 is some kind of conflict between the GPS derived time and the Windows=20 operating system. My fix was to disable the "set computer time" function and let the Winsdr time be = independent of=20 the computer time and use the internet time on the computer. The data = is=20 tagged with the GPS time so there is no error in the seismic data.=20
 
I have been told  by Angel = that Vista=20 does not allow  the time to be set by any source other than = manual or=20 internet time services .
 
I admit I don't fully understand the = interaction=20 but Vista has this and many other frustrating idiosyncrasies.  I = did=20  not have this problem with the XP home edition .
 
Dave
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JAMES=20 ALLEN
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, = 2008=20 01:12
Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA = WHEN GPS=20 CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

I will try turning off Windows time = service and=20 see if that solves the problem.  Thanks
James
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Angel
Sent: Monday, August 11, = 2008 5:51=20 PM
Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF = DATA WHEN=20 GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote:


>

I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier = (previous=20 version) with an Motorola Oncore GPS connected through = Larry's GPS=20 interface board.  Does anyone know why or have a = solution for a=20 drop out in data when the GPS corrects the computer time. =  I am=20 running Windows XP professional on the computer. =  Everything=20 else works fine with WinSDR.

Thanks

James=20 Allen


Hi James,


Windows has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries = to keep=20 your computer time.  Maybe it is doing just that and you end = up with=20 packets with weird timestamps.  Just a thought.


You can turn off this service.


regards,


Angel


Subject: RE: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: "Gary Lindgren" gel@................. Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:35:19 -0700 James, Any messages in the log file after the time update. Gary From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of JAMES ALLEN Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 8:58 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR Thanks Dave. I disabled the computer automatically correcting the time in the time and date window of Windows Xp, but alas, no luck. I guess I will just have to live with not using the GPS to set the computer clock. James Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Nelson To: psn-l@.............. Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:24 PM Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR Hi James, I had a similar problem with Vista. I had "set computer time " set to enable .. After a period of time (hour to days ) Winsdr would start to produce errors and then crash. There is some kind of conflict between the GPS derived time and the Windows operating system. My fix was to disable the "set computer time" function and let the Winsdr time be independent of the computer time and use the internet time on the computer. The data is tagged with the GPS time so there is no error in the seismic data. I have been told by Angel that Vista does not allow the time to be set by any source other than manual or internet time services . I admit I don't fully understand the interaction but Vista has this and many other frustrating idiosyncrasies. I did not have this problem with the XP home edition . Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: JAMES ALLEN To: psn-l@.............. Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 01:12 Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR I will try turning off Windows time service and see if that solves the problem. Thanks James ----- Original Message ----- From: Angel To: JAMES ALLEN Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote: > I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier (previous version) with an Motorola Oncore GPS connected through Larry's GPS interface board. Does anyone know why or have a solution for a drop out in data when the GPS corrects the computer time. I am running Windows XP professional on the computer. Everything else works fine with WinSDR. Thanks James Allen Hi James, Windows has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries to keep your computer time. Maybe it is doing just that and you end up with packets with weird timestamps. Just a thought. You can turn off this service. regards, Angel Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

James,

Any messages in the log file after the time = update.

Gary

 

From:= psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On = Behalf Of JAMES ALLEN
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 8:58 PM
To: psn-l@..............
Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN = WINSDR

 

T= hanks Dave.   I disabled the computer automatically correcting the = time in the time and date window of Windows Xp, but alas, no luck.  I guess = I will just have to live with not using the GPS to set the computer = clock. 

J= ames Allen

-= ---- Original Message -----

F= rom: = Dave = Nelson

S= ent: = Monday, August 11, 2008 7:24 PM

S= ubject: = Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

 

H= i James,

 

I= had a similar problem with Vista. I had "set computer time " set to = enable .. After a period of time  (hour to days ) Winsdr  would start = to produce errors   and then crash. There is some kind of = conflict between the GPS derived time and the Windows operating system. My fix = was to disable the "set computer time" function and let the Winsdr = time be independent of the computer time and use the internet time on the = computer. The data is tagged with the GPS time so there is no error in the seismic = data.

 

I=  have been told  by Angel that Vista does not allow  the time to be = set by any source other than manual or internet time services .

 

I= admit I don't fully understand the interaction but Vista has this and many other frustrating idiosyncrasies.  I did  not have this problem with = the XP home edition .

 

D= ave

 

-= ---- Original Message -----

F= rom: = JAMES ALLEN

S= ent: = Tuesday, August 12, 2008 01:12

S= ubject: = Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

 

I= will try turning off Windows time service and see if that solves the = problem.  Thanks

J= ames

-= ---- Original Message -----

F= rom: = Angel

T= o: = JAMES ALLEN

S= ent: = Monday, August 11, 2008 5:51 PM

S= ubject: = Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

 

Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote:

 

> 

I = am using Larry's A/D and amplifier (previous version) with an Motorola Oncore = GPS connected through Larry's GPS interface board.  Does anyone know = why or have a solution for a drop out in data when the GPS corrects the = computer time.  I am running Windows XP professional on the computer.  Everything else works fine with WinSDR.

Thanks

James Allen

 

Hi James,

 

Windows has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries to keep = your computer time.  Maybe it is doing just that and you end up with = packets with weird timestamps.  Just a thought.

 

You can turn off this service.

 

regards,

 

Angel

 

Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: "JAMES ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:52:05 -0700 Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDRGary The log file has a string of entries such as: 1. Adjust computer time by 393.961 seconds 2. GPS time not set: lck 00:03 diff:0adj:0 sats:2/14 5:1E:0 3. min buffer to old tome error: diff=3D189 4. ADC:Id:saas readSts:4/13 5:1E:0 After the data drops out then it resumes logging data until it attempts = to correct time again. It does not seem to matter whether the computer = clock is set to check the time through the internet or such checking is = disabled. I really appreciate your trying to help me. James Allen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gary Lindgren=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 9:35 PM Subject: RE: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR James, Any messages in the log file after the time update. Gary =20 From: psn-l-request@.............. = [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of JAMES ALLEN Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 8:58 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR =20 Thanks Dave. I disabled the computer automatically correcting the = time in the time and date window of Windows Xp, but alas, no luck. I = guess I will just have to live with not using the GPS to set the = computer clock. =20 James Allen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dave Nelson=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:24 PM Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR =20 Hi James, =20 I had a similar problem with Vista. I had "set computer time " set = to enable . After a period of time (hour to days ) Winsdr would start = to produce errors and then crash. There is some kind of conflict = between the GPS derived time and the Windows operating system. My fix = was to disable the "set computer time" function and let the Winsdr time = be independent of the computer time and use the internet time on the = computer. The data is tagged with the GPS time so there is no error in = the seismic data.=20 =20 I have been told by Angel that Vista does not allow the time to be = set by any source other than manual or internet time services . =20 I admit I don't fully understand the interaction but Vista has this = and many other frustrating idiosyncrasies. I did not have this problem = with the XP home edition . =20 Dave=20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JAMES ALLEN=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 01:12 Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR =20 I will try turning off Windows time service and see if that solves = the problem. Thanks James ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Angel=20 To: JAMES ALLEN=20 Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR =20 Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote: =20 >=20 I am using Larry's A/D and amplifier (previous version) = with an Motorola Oncore GPS connected through Larry's GPS interface = board. Does anyone know why or have a solution for a drop out in data = when the GPS corrects the computer time. I am running Windows XP = professional on the computer. Everything else works fine with WinSDR. Thanks James Allen =20 =20 Hi James, =20 Windows has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries = to keep your computer time. Maybe it is doing just that and you end up = with packets with weird timestamps. Just a thought. =20 You can turn off this service. =20 regards, =20 Angel =20 Re: DROP = OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR
Gary
The log file has a string of entries = such=20 as:
1.  Adjust computer time by = 393.961=20 seconds
2.  GPS time not set: lck 00:03 = diff:0adj:0=20 sats:2/14 5:1E:0
3.  min buffer to old tome error:=20 diff=3D189
4.  ADC:Id:saas readSts:4/13=20 5:1E:0
After the data drops out then it = resumes logging=20 data until it attempts to correct time again.  It does not seem to = matter=20 whether the computer clock is set to check the time through the internet = or such=20 checking is disabled.
I really appreciate your trying to help = me.
James Allen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Gary=20 Lindgren
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 = 9:35=20 PM
Subject: RE: DROP OUT OF DATA = WHEN GPS=20 CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR

James,

Any=20 messages in the log file after the time update.

Gary

 

From: psn-l-request@............... =20 [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of JAMES=20 ALLEN
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 8:58 PM
To: psn-l@..............
Subje= ct:=20 Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN=20 WINSDR

 

Thanks=20 Dave.   I disabled the computer automatically correcting the = time in=20 the time and date window of Windows Xp, but alas, no luck.  I = guess I=20 will just have to live with not using the GPS to set the computer = clock. =20

James=20 Allen

-----=20 Original Message -----

From: Dave = Nelson=20

To: psn-l@..............=20

Sent:=20 Monday, August 11, 2008 7:24 PM

Subject:=20 Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN=20 WINSDR

 

Hi=20 James,

 

I=20 had a similar problem with Vista. I had "set computer time " set to = enable .=20 After a period of time  (hour to days ) Winsdr  would = start to=20 produce errors   and then crash. There is some kind of = conflict=20 between the GPS derived time and the Windows operating system. My = fix was to=20 disable the "set computer time" function and let the Winsdr time be=20 independent of the computer time and use the internet time on the = computer.=20 The data is tagged with the GPS time so there is no error in the = seismic=20 data.

 

I have=20 been told  by Angel that Vista does not allow  the time to = be set=20 by any source other than manual or internet time services = ..

 

I=20 admit I don't fully understand the interaction but Vista has this = and many=20 other frustrating idiosyncrasies.  I did  not have this = problem=20 with the XP home edition .

 

Dave=20

 

-----=20 Original Message -----

From:=20 JAMES=20 ALLEN

Sent:=20 Tuesday, August 12, 2008 01:12

Subject:=20 Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN=20 WINSDR

 

I=20 will try turning off Windows time service and see if that solves = the=20 problem.  Thanks

James

-----=20 Original Message -----

From:=20 Angel=20

Sent:=20 Monday, August 11, 2008 5:51 PM

Subject:=20 Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN=20 WINSDR

 

Tuesday,=20 August 12, 2008, 12:23:34 AM, you wrote:

 

> 

I=20 am using Larry's A/D and amplifier (previous version) with = an=20 Motorola Oncore GPS connected through Larry's GPS = interface board.=20  Does anyone know why or have a solution for a drop = out in=20 data when the GPS corrects the computer time.  I am = running=20 Windows XP professional on the computer.  Everything = else=20 works fine with WinSDR.

Thanks

James=20 Allen

 

Hi=20 James,

 

Windows=20 has a service called "Windows Time Service" that tries to keep = your=20 computer time.  Maybe it is doing just that and you end up = with=20 packets with weird timestamps.  Just a=20 thought.

 

You can=20 turn off this service.

 

regards,

 

Angel

 

=
Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: Kevin Brunt k.brunt@......... Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:43:03 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Hi. If your computer is _really_ getting 5 minutes adrift of the GPS time, there is something pathological happening... You'd expect this sort of drift over the course of weeks or months. I don't know either the hardware or the software, so I am speculating. However, it looks more as if there is a quarrel going on as to what the correct time is. Are you sure that you've disabled the OS time synchronisation hard enough? How often is this happening? Did it _start_ happening after the clocks went forward, perhaps? Kevin On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:52:05 -0700 JAMES ALLEN wrote: > The log file has a string of entries such as: > 1. Adjust computer time by 393.961 seconds > 2. GPS time not set: lck 00:03 diff:0adj:0 sats:2/14 5:1E:0 > 3. min buffer to old tome error: diff=189 > 4. ADC:Id:saas readSts:4/13 5:1E:0 > After the data drops out then it resumes logging data until it attempts to > correct time again. It does not seem to matter whether the computer clock is > set to check the time through the internet or such checking is disabled. > I really appreciate your trying to help me. > James Allen __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: "JAMES ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:15:12 -0700 I appreciate the help that Gary, Chris and Kevin have provided regarding the data drop out problem but no matter what I try it still remains. Therefore, I am going to just change to another computer for logging data. Thanks James Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Brunt" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:43 PM Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR > > Hi. > > If your computer is _really_ getting 5 minutes adrift of the GPS time, > there is > something pathological happening... You'd expect this sort of drift over > the > course of weeks or months. > > I don't know either the hardware or the software, so I am speculating. > However, > it looks more as if there is a quarrel going on as to what the correct > time is. > Are you sure that you've disabled the OS time synchronisation hard enough? > > How often is this happening? Did it _start_ happening after the clocks > went > forward, perhaps? > > Kevin > > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:52:05 -0700 JAMES ALLEN > wrote: > >> The log file has a string of entries such as: >> 1. Adjust computer time by 393.961 seconds >> 2. GPS time not set: lck 00:03 diff:0adj:0 sats:2/14 5:1E:0 >> 3. min buffer to old tome error: diff=189 >> 4. ADC:Id:saas readSts:4/13 5:1E:0 >> After the data drops out then it resumes logging data until it attempts >> to >> correct time again. It does not seem to matter whether the computer >> clock is >> set to check the time through the internet or such checking is disabled. >> I really appreciate your trying to help me. >> James Allen > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: Mark Robinson mark.robinson@............... Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:50:57 +1200 JAMES ALLEN wrote: > > Gary > The log file has a string of entries such as: > 1. Adjust computer time by 393.961 seconds > 2. GPS time not set: lck 00:03 diff:0adj:0 sats:2/14 5:1E:0 > 3. min buffer to old tome error: diff=189 > 4. ADC:Id:saas readSts:4/13 5:1E:0 > After the data drops out then it resumes logging data until it attempts > to correct time again. It does not seem to matter whether the computer > clock is set to check the time through the internet or such checking is > disabled. > I really appreciate your trying to help me. > James Allen Hi James, How far away is your computer clock from what it should be ? Setting it manually as well as you can should make time setting software work much better. The line "2. GPS time not set: lck 00:03 diff:0adj:0 sats:2/14 5:1E:0" seems to indicate that you are only receiving two satellites. That is not enough. You may need to get more clear sky above your GPS receiver. If, as Dave says, WinSDR crashes when it gets confused about the time then that's a bug which Larry could perhaps have a look at. Regards Mark __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Concerning "A vertical and horizontal sensing pendulum" From: Randall Peters PETERS_RD@.......... Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 08:28:04 -0400 Meredith, I am trying to understand the vertical response that you mention for the system described at http://seismometer.googlepages.com/vh With the pendulum hanging initially at equilibrium (center of mass directly below the center of the ruby spheres) I can't envision any physical mechanism for which a strictly vertical acceleration is capable of producing motion. Randall Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR From: "JAMES ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 08:21:39 -0700 Thanks Gary. Good advice. A lot of the entries reflected that it was having a problem locking onto sufficient satellites. I appreciate the help. Also, I have sent Larry an email regarding this. Again, many thanks to you and others for your assistance. James Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Robinson" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:50 PM Subject: Re: DROP OUT OF DATA WHEN GPS CORRECTS TIME IN WINSDR > JAMES ALLEN wrote: >> >> Gary >> The log file has a string of entries such as: >> 1. Adjust computer time by 393.961 seconds >> 2. GPS time not set: lck 00:03 diff:0adj:0 sats:2/14 5:1E:0 >> 3. min buffer to old tome error: diff=189 >> 4. ADC:Id:saas readSts:4/13 5:1E:0 >> After the data drops out then it resumes logging data until it attempts >> to correct time again. It does not seem to matter whether the computer >> clock is set to check the time through the internet or such checking is >> disabled. >> I really appreciate your trying to help me. >> James Allen > > Hi James, > > How far away is your computer clock from what it should be ? Setting it > manually as well as you can should make time setting software work much > better. > > The line "2. GPS time not set: lck 00:03 diff:0adj:0 sats:2/14 5:1E:0" > seems to indicate that you are only receiving two satellites. That is not > enough. You may need to get more clear sky above your GPS receiver. > > If, as Dave says, WinSDR crashes when it gets confused about the time then > that's a bug which Larry could perhaps have a look at. > > Regards > Mark > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Concerning "A vertical and horizontal sensing pendulum" From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:35:30 -0600 Randall, Per the email below; you are absolutely correct; it doesn't have a vertical component. Just by my putting a finger on the mass (which is what I should have originally checked); there isn't any sensed vertical motion whatsoever. I will eventually change the web page to reflect such correction. Mental logic says it yet still quite possible to actually make it specifically vertical sensitive, by perhaps adding either a pivot area metal extension and a adjustable spring which extents perhaps to the base area or thereabouts; which forces a vertical component into the picture. The horizontal sensing motion "seems" noteably enhanced (~1/2 hour longer than any other tested S-G pivot setup) by the offset pivot....i.e., via my simple amateur friction mass offset time duration test. With your background; I suspect you may have indeed already tried such...what's your simplified opinion on that pivot approach....I'am quite "open" on that subject too. It does seem to have a very responsive visual pendulum offset to even very the slightest air currents when not shielded/enclosed. Its a novel S-G pivot (simple gravity pendulum) setup yes; but still interesting where it might be possible to use either a added spring maintained vertical, or, the as is, horizontal sensing; but likely not both at the same time. Take care, Meredith On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Randall Peters wrote: > Meredith, > I am trying to understand the vertical response that you mention for > the system described at http://seismometer.googlepages.com/vh > With the pendulum hanging initially at equilibrium (center of mass > directly below the center of the ruby spheres) I can't envision any > physical mechanism for which a strictly vertical acceleration is capable > of producing motion. > Randall >
Randall,
 
Per the email below; you are absolutely correct; it doesn't have a vertical component.  Just by my putting a finger
on the mass (which is what I should have originally checked); there isn't any sensed vertical motion whatsoever.  I will
eventually change the web page to reflect such correction.
 
Mental logic says it yet still quite possible to actually make it specifically vertical sensitive, by perhaps adding either a pivot area
metal extension and a adjustable spring which extents perhaps to the base area or thereabouts; which forces a vertical
component into the picture.
 
The horizontal sensing motion "seems" noteably enhanced (~1/2 hour longer than any other tested S-G pivot setup) by the
offset pivot....i.e., via my simple amateur friction mass offset time duration test.   With your background; I suspect you may
have indeed already tried such...what's your simplified opinion on that pivot approach....I'am quite "open" on that subject too.
 
It does seem to have a very responsive visual pendulum offset to even very the slightest air currents when not shielded/enclosed.
 
Its a novel S-G pivot (simple gravity pendulum) setup yes; but still interesting where it might be possible to use either
a added spring maintained vertical, or, the as is, horizontal sensing; but likely not both at the same time.
 
Take care, Meredith   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Randall Peters <PETERS_RD@..........> wrote:
Meredith,
   I am trying to understand the vertical response that you mention for
the system described at http://seismometer.googlepages.com/vh
With the pendulum hanging initially at equilibrium (center of mass
directly below the center of the ruby spheres) I can't envision any
physical mechanism for which a strictly vertical acceleration is capable
of producing motion.
  Randall

Subject: offset pivot From: Randall Peters PETERS_RD@.......... Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:08:54 -0400 Meredith, I am glad that you discovered the absence of vertical sensitivity in your system. Otherwise I would have to revisit some foundational physics! About the offset pivot--perhaps you have discovered something significant that nobody seems to have noticed. Internal friction in the rod holding the lower mass is bound to be of greater importance than most people would expect. Perhaps because of the bending stresses associated with the offset pivot, there could be some 'locking-up' of dislocations in the rod and thus a reduction in the damping that derives from this contributor. One would want to be sure that your improvement is not simply due to the better properties of the ruby balls, compared to what you were previously using?. Ruby differs from pure aluminum oxide crystals only in the nature of the color centers due to impurities (chromium for ruby, titanium for sapphire; although usually the pure material without substitutional impurities is also called simply sapphire). Can you readily modify the system to measure the damping as a function of the amount of offset? It would be an interesting study with potentially significant consequences to seismology. Randall Subject: Re: SPRENGNETHER 201 LONG PERIOD VERTICAL SEISMOMETER From: "JAMES ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:34:11 -0700 Meredith Lamb or any member using a Sprengnether 201 Long Period unit: = There is an scale on the front of mine with the indicator pointer that = is at the fourth line from the top, which is essentially at the top = stop, and will normally oscillate to the 6th line from the top. Is this = where it is supposed to be or should it be centered on the 20 unit scale = which after a year of off and on fiddling seems impossible? James Allen =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: meredith lamb=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:35 AM Subject: Re: Concerning "A vertical and horizontal sensing pendulum" Randall, Per the email below; you are absolutely correct; it doesn't have a = vertical component. Just by my putting a finger on the mass (which is what I should have originally checked); there = isn't any sensed vertical motion whatsoever. I will eventually change the web page to reflect such correction. Mental logic says it yet still quite possible to actually make it = specifically vertical sensitive, by perhaps adding either a pivot area metal extension and a adjustable spring which extents perhaps to the = base area or thereabouts; which forces a vertical component into the picture. The horizontal sensing motion "seems" noteably enhanced (~1/2 hour = longer than any other tested S-G pivot setup) by the offset pivot....i.e., via my simple amateur friction mass offset time = duration test. With your background; I suspect you may have indeed already tried such...what's your simplified opinion on = that pivot approach....I'am quite "open" on that subject too. It does seem to have a very responsive visual pendulum offset to even = very the slightest air currents when not shielded/enclosed. Its a novel S-G pivot (simple gravity pendulum) setup yes; but still = interesting where it might be possible to use either a added spring maintained vertical, or, the as is, horizontal sensing; = but likely not both at the same time. Take care, Meredith =20 =20 On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Randall Peters = wrote: Meredith, I am trying to understand the vertical response that you mention = for the system described at http://seismometer.googlepages.com/vh With the pendulum hanging initially at equilibrium (center of mass directly below the center of the ruby spheres) I can't envision any physical mechanism for which a strictly vertical acceleration is = capable of producing motion. Randall
Meredith Lamb or any member using a = Sprengnether=20 201 Long Period unit:  There is an scale on the front of mine = with the=20 indicator pointer that is at the fourth line from the top, which is = essentially at the top stop, and will normally oscillate to the 6th = line=20 from the top.  Is this where it is supposed to be or should it be = centered=20 on the 20 unit scale which after a year of off and on = fiddling seems=20 impossible?
James Allen  
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 meredith lamb
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, = 2008 9:35=20 AM
Subject: Re: Concerning "A = vertical and=20 horizontal sensing pendulum"

Randall,
 
Per the email below; you are absolutely correct; it doesn't have = a=20 vertical component.  Just by my putting a finger
on the mass (which is what I should have originally checked); = there isn't=20 any sensed vertical motion whatsoever.  I will
eventually change the web page to reflect such correction.
 
Mental logic says it yet still quite possible to actually make it = specifically vertical sensitive, by perhaps adding either a pivot = area
metal extension and a adjustable spring which extents perhaps to = the base=20 area or thereabouts; which forces a vertical
component into the picture.
 
The horizontal sensing motion "seems" noteably enhanced = (~1/2 hour=20 longer than any other tested S-G pivot setup) by the
offset pivot....i.e., via my simple amateur friction mass offset = time=20 duration test.   With your background; I suspect you = may
have indeed already tried such...what's your simplified opinion = on that=20 pivot approach....I'am quite "open" on that subject too.
 
It does seem to have a very responsive visual=20 pendulum offset to even very the slightest air currents when not=20 shielded/enclosed.
 
Its a novel S-G pivot (simple gravity pendulum) setup yes; but = still=20 interesting where it might be possible to use either
a added spring maintained vertical, or, the as is, horizontal = sensing;=20 but likely not both at the same time.
 
Take care, Meredith   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Randall = Peters <PETERS_RD@..........> = wrote:
Meredith,
 =20  I am trying to understand the vertical response that you = mention=20 for
the system described at http://seismometer.googlepages.com/vh
With = the pendulum=20 hanging initially at equilibrium (center of mass
directly below = the=20 center of the ruby spheres) I can't envision any
physical = mechanism for=20 which a strictly vertical acceleration is capable
of producing=20 motion.
 =20 = Randall

Subject: Re: offset pivot From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:45:57 -0600 Hi Randall, Thanks for the patience, humor, speculation and encouragement. I've re-read the below quite afew times and alas, it just simply doesn't register with me, as a "why; is it oscillating longer than a standard S-G?". Mind you, that could very well be "it", in the boom itself; I literally just don't know myself. I've even tried 2 (different) small carbide flats (attached to the boom), which oscillate on 2 same size (but different) fixed/glued to the frame ruby balls. The time duration remained within one minute as the opposite. This "oscillating flats on fixed balls", was a curiosity test directly relating to Chris Chapmans new flat end boom pivot oscillating on a mast fixed ball on a horizontal Lehman; which seems to greatly offer more overall stability, ease of use, and seemingly even a possible longer natural period. I've put that curiosity flip/flop pivot test text (no pic's yet) on the same page today, but it was done in July. http://seismometer.googlepages.com/vh Simple strictly vertical gravity pendulums using similar carbide flats and exact same size ruby balls consistently have fallen shorter in time duration oscillations by 1/2 to 1 hour less. In short; the offset pivot seems to freely oscillate ~ > 14% or more longer than a traditional simple gravity pendulum pivot. Outside of pivot/s and air resistance, there is no (eddy current) dampening on any of these setups. On another web page, I've listed a variety of S-G pivots tests. This offset pivot is listed as 1. & 2. Number 3, a traditional S-G, has actually seen more tests (switched carbide flats) than shown, or listed; but they ranged from 2 hours 40 minutes up to 2 hours 55 minutes. The ruby ball remained the same. http://seismometer.googlepages.com/sgpivots In reality, this pivot sure isn't a practical use pivot; unless there is a rapid mechanical way of referencing and insuring pivot placement for what ever degree offset is "best?"....and even then, it might be too overall complicated for replication. Of course the eddy current dampening mechanism would also have to be mechanically varible for the different angle and height changes one might encounter. I also can't see how "measuring the damping as a function of the amount of offset" could possibly enter into the overall picture, or have any significant value....I would think it would remain the same...but then, I'am often wrong.... Take care, Meredith Lamb On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Randall Peters wrote: > Meredith, > I am glad that you discovered the absence of vertical sensitivity > in your system. Otherwise I would have to revisit some foundational > physics! > About the offset pivot--perhaps you have discovered something > significant that nobody seems to have noticed. Internal friction in the > rod holding the lower mass is bound to be of greater importance than > most people would expect. Perhaps because of the bending stresses > associated with the offset pivot, there could be some 'locking-up' of > dislocations in the rod and thus a reduction in the damping that derives > from this contributor. One would want to be sure that your improvement > is not simply due to the better properties of the ruby balls, compared > to what you were previously using?. Ruby differs from pure aluminum > oxide crystals only in the nature of the color centers due to impurities > (chromium for ruby, titanium for sapphire; although usually the pure > material without substitutional impurities is also called simply > sapphire). > Can you readily modify the system to measure the damping as a > function of the amount of offset? It would be an interesting study > with potentially significant consequences to seismology. > Randall >
Hi Randall,
 
Thanks for the patience, humor, speculation and encouragement.  I've re-read the below quite afew times and alas,
it just simply doesn't register with me, as a "why; is it oscillating longer than a standard S-G?".  Mind you, that
could very well be "it", in the boom itself; I literally just don't know myself.
 
I've even tried 2 (different) small carbide flats (attached to the boom), which oscillate on 2 same size (but different)
fixed/glued to the frame ruby balls.  The time duration remained within one minute as the opposite.  This "oscillating
flats on fixed balls", was a curiosity test directly relating to Chris Chapmans new flat end boom pivot oscillating on a 
mast fixed ball on a horizontal Lehman; which seems to greatly offer more overall stability, ease of use, and seemingly even
a possible longer natural period.   I've put that curiosity flip/flop pivot test text (no pic's yet) on the same page today, but it was
done in July.
 
 
Simple strictly vertical gravity pendulums using similar carbide flats and exact same size ruby balls consistently have fallen
shorter in time duration oscillations by 1/2 to 1 hour less.  In short; the offset pivot seems to freely oscillate ~ > 14% or more longer
than a traditional simple gravity pendulum pivot.  Outside of pivot/s and air resistance, there is no (eddy current) dampening
on any of these setups.
 
On another web page, I've listed a variety of S-G pivots tests.  This offset pivot is listed as 1. & 2.  Number 3, a traditional S-G,
has actually seen more tests (switched carbide flats) than shown, or listed; but they ranged from 2 hours 40 minutes up to 2 hours
55 minutes.  The ruby ball remained the same.
 
 
 
In reality, this pivot sure isn't a practical use pivot; unless there is a rapid mechanical way of referencing and insuring pivot placement for
what ever degree offset is "best?"....and even then, it might be too overall complicated for replication.
 
Of course the eddy current dampening mechanism would also have to be mechanically varible for the different angle and height
changes one might encounter.  I also can't see how "measuring the damping as a function of the amount of offset" could possibly
enter into the overall picture, or have any significant value....I would think it would remain the same...but then, I'am often wrong....
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb

 
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Randall Peters <PETERS_RD@..........> wrote:
Meredith,
    I am glad that you discovered the absence of vertical sensitivity
in your system.  Otherwise I would have to revisit some foundational
physics!
About the offset pivot--perhaps you have discovered something
significant that nobody seems to have noticed.  Internal friction in the
rod holding the lower mass is bound to be of greater importance than
most people would expect.  Perhaps because of the bending stresses
associated with the offset pivot, there could be some 'locking-up' of
dislocations in the rod and thus a reduction in the damping that derives
from this contributor.   One would want to be sure that your improvement
is not simply due to the better properties of the ruby balls, compared
to what you were previously using?.  Ruby differs from pure aluminum
oxide crystals only in the nature of the color centers due to impurities
(chromium for ruby, titanium for sapphire; although usually the pure
material without substitutional impurities is also called simply
sapphire).
   Can you readily modify the system to measure the damping as a
function of the amount of offset?   It would be an interesting study
with potentially significant consequences to seismology.
   Randall

Subject: Re: SPRENGNETHER 201 LONG PERIOD VERTICAL SEISMOMETER From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:35:55 -0600 On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 9:34 PM, JAMES ALLEN wrote: > Meredith Lamb or any member using a Sprengnether 201 Long Period > unit: There is an scale on the front of mine with the indicator pointer > that is at the fourth line from the top, which is essentially at the top > stop, and will normally oscillate to the 6th line from the top. Is this > where it is supposed to be or should it be centered on the 20 unit scale > which after a year of off and on fiddling seems impossible? > James Allen > > > Hmmm....either its my computer malfunctioned or ?, but here I see my > response to Randall showing up below your message above??? > > James, It "sounds" like you need to give some more slack to the top wire (top rear rotating knurled nut) ...just to allow the frame/mass to come further down, which then allows the vertical seismometer boom/mass to get within the true center range of your boom range/pointer mechanism. It normally should be able to range over the entire pointer scale of course. My wild guess is that the previous owner/s had the same (which IS entirely solvable) problem also; but didn't do the necessary adjustment/s. Remove the coil and dampening coil wires before exploring the adjustment mechanisms. I don't know what you've done before; so, all I can do is text the below. At the rear top is a knurled round threaded wire adjustment which will raise/lower the wire (and which changes the period). Try rotating that slowly over whatever reaction range first....in conjunction with varying the front set screw, which you'll need to do probably constantly. Its entirely possible that even a slight partial rotation or more; will get you into a full range of its indicator pointer. Another potential "indicator/answer" could lie in your front single set screw adjustment setting. Try rotating that over a reasonable range and observe whether the boom/mass hits the stop at the top the majority of the time. If (the boom/pointer) hits the top stop limit and stays there the majority of the set screw range change; then that reaction would might re-affirm you need for more wire slack as above. Adjusting both the front set screw and the top back screw is critical for this "boom/mass balance/pointer range" or in short; just being able to see its oscillation movement range. The whole thing is kind of a crude weight balance with the spring acting as kind of a varying pivot force. IF.....you've done all this before (?), and it still tends to go to the upper range limit/stop....then you might actually have to unclamp the compression wire fitting and feed abit more wire down. Thats a really nasty job, as you'll be physically fighting the strong spring tension while trying to place the wire lower and also be ready to tighten the compression wire clamp. Its possible that the previous owner/s might have cut off the exposed wire coming out of the wire adjustment at the top/back (?), there should normally be some wire coming out there? If there isn't any wire....and you're at the limit of adjustments...you may have to rewire it to give more room/slack of course. We can get into that if necessary. I have a love-hate relationship with this coil/magnet vertical. I like its long mechanical period; but I hate its temperature sensitivity. All in all, its worth fussing with....theres no real mechanical alternative of course; outside of electronic extension of lesser period gizmo's. Most amateurs have no vertical whatsoever.... Take care, Meredith


On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 9:34 PM, JAMES ALLEN <jcallen1@...........> wrote:
Meredith Lamb or any member using a Sprengnether 201 Long Period unit:  There is an scale on the front of mine with the indicator pointer that is at the fourth line from the top, which is essentially at the top stop, and will normally oscillate to the 6th line from the top.  Is this where it is supposed to be or should it be centered on the 20 unit scale which after a year of off and on fiddling seems impossible?
James Allen  
 
Hmmm....either its my computer malfunctioned or ?, but here I see my response to Randall showing up below your message above???
James,
 
It "sounds" like you need to give some more slack to the top wire (top rear rotating knurled nut) ...just to allow the frame/mass to come
further down, which then allows the vertical seismometer boom/mass to get within the true center range of your
boom range/pointer mechanism.  It normally should be able to range over the entire pointer scale of course.  My wild guess is that the previous
owner/s had the same (which IS entirely solvable) problem also; but didn't do the necessary adjustment/s.
 
Remove the coil and dampening coil wires before exploring the adjustment mechanisms.  I don't know what you've done before; so, all
I can do is text the below.
 
At the rear top is a knurled round threaded wire adjustment which will raise/lower the wire (and which changes the period).  Try rotating that
slowly over whatever reaction range first....in conjunction with varying the front set screw, which you'll need to do probably constantly.  Its
entirely possible that even a slight partial rotation or more; will get you into a full range of its indicator pointer. 
 
Another potential "indicator/answer" could lie in your front single set screw adjustment setting.  Try rotating that over a reasonable range
and observe whether the boom/mass hits the stop at the top the majority of the time.  If (the boom/pointer) hits the top stop limit and stays there the
majority of the set screw range change; then that reaction would might re-affirm you need for more wire slack as above.
 
Adjusting both the front set screw and the top back screw is critical for this "boom/mass balance/pointer range" or in short; just being able to
see its oscillation movement range.  The whole thing is kind of a crude weight balance with the spring acting as kind of a varying pivot force.
 
IF.....you've done all this before (?), and it still tends to go to the upper range limit/stop....then you might actually have to unclamp the
compression wire fitting and feed abit more wire down.  Thats a really nasty job, as you'll be physically fighting the strong spring tension
while trying to place the wire lower and also be ready to tighten the compression wire clamp.  Its possible that the previous owner/s might
have cut off the exposed wire coming out of the wire adjustment at the top/back (?), there should normally be some wire coming out there?
If there isn't any wire....and you're at the limit of adjustments...you may have to rewire it to give more room/slack of course.  We can get
into that if necessary.
 
I have a love-hate relationship with this coil/magnet vertical.  I like its long mechanical period; but I hate its temperature sensitivity.  All in all, its
worth fussing with....theres no real mechanical alternative of course; outside of electronic extension of lesser period gizmo's.   Most
amateurs have no vertical whatsoever....
 
Take care, Meredith
 
 
 
 
 
         
Subject: Re: SPRENGNETHER 201 LONG PERIOD VERTICAL SEISMOMETER From: "JAMES ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:35:58 -0700 Thanks Meredith. I appreciate all the recommendations and tips for = adjusting what I think is a "beautiful piece of seismic equipment". = Your email has re-inspired me to really tackle this challenge. I will = let you know how it turns out. =20 Many thanks again for you wisdom and help. James Allen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: meredith lamb=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:35 AM Subject: Re: SPRENGNETHER 201 LONG PERIOD VERTICAL SEISMOMETER On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 9:34 PM, JAMES ALLEN = wrote: Meredith Lamb or any member using a Sprengnether 201 Long Period = unit: There is an scale on the front of mine with the indicator pointer = that is at the fourth line from the top, which is essentially at the top = stop,